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Old 08-14-2017, 04:47 PM   #1
Shai Hulud
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Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Had a hand last night where I raise AJ to $15 from the Cutoff. I get called by the button and the BB. BB is a reg, button villain is a Russian man, looks about 60--haven't seen him before.

Flop ($47) T73

BB checks and I decide this board is decent to C-bet $25 as I think BB is usually folding and a lot of cards improve my hand OTT. BTN calls, BB folds.

Turn ($97) T73K

This is a great card for me so I bet $60. BTN thinks a moment and calls.

River ($217) T73K4

I think for about 20 seconds, then pick up a stack of $125. Villain immediately picks up all his chips and holds them out as if to call. He doesn't do it subtly either--sticks them well past the betting line. I set my chips down to think some more and he sets his down. I pick them back up, he picks his stack back up and sticks it out there. At this point I'm pretty confused. Either this is classic strong-means-weak behavior or he is pulling a reverse tell with a flush to try to get me to bet, and I can't decide which. I think he has either the flush or something like AT/JT, maybe KT, possibly even 98 or a hand like AQ one diamond and he wants to bluff me out of the pot thinking I have a T or a K.

I tank about a minute total and finally just check. He insta-shoves. I fold obviously as all I beat is 98.

But what does villain likely have here? What does the chip mirroring fake-out thing mean? And when he insta-shoves, is that strong-means-weak or what?

After the insta-shove I don't think he has just a T as he should check behind there, unless he thinks I have a K and wants me to fold it. But after the insta-shove I'm leaning towards he had 98, AQ with a diamond, a flush, or KT.
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Old 08-14-2017, 06:18 PM   #2
leavesofliberty
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Bet w/o hesitation. If you have the nuts b w hesitation to induce a call. V is looking for you to hesitate imhe. It would be better to observe it first outside of the hand, because there are a decent number of players who telegraph call and actual do call. The more blatant, the more it is for show, and a bet should take it down enough. V has less than top pair, or the river felt really bad for him.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:44 PM   #3
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

The few times I have had a guy aggressively posture while I was tanking, I have bet, and they have folded. If I am holding a nuttish hand and I see a guy cutting out chips, there is no way I am going to do anything to mess with him.

No way the guy had a flush. I do think he had a hand, though, and you probably would have had to bet turn and river to get him off of it. Depending on stack sizes, you might not have had enough to bluff him off his hand.
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Old 08-14-2017, 09:48 PM   #4
Shai Hulud
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
The few times I have had a guy aggressively posture while I was tanking, I have bet, and they have folded. If I am holding a nuttish hand and I see a guy cutting out chips, there is no way I am going to do anything to mess with him.

No way the guy had a flush. I do think he had a hand, though, and you probably would have had to bet turn and river to get him off of it. Depending on stack sizes, you might not have had enough to bluff him off his hand.
I normally don't hesitate but the aggressive posturing threw me off. I was skeptical he had a flush but didn't know if he would call with a weak hand 2nd pair after seeing me hesitate so I just gave it up.

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Old 08-14-2017, 09:52 PM   #5
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Depends on the kind of player he is if he's The Gambler type who will bet big on nothing then you should have called but if he's the type who was playing kind of tight and some hands and he shoves all in maybe
he had two pair maybe three of a kind or maybe he did have the flush not likelyI've been in situations where a player had a flush and he checked all the way to the river

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Old 08-14-2017, 10:43 PM   #6
Shai Hulud
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Hadn't seen him before. Eastern European guys are often gambly though. I would guess he has a T and would make a crying call. Possible he has 98 or AQ but I don't even beat AQ

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Old 08-15-2017, 05:09 AM   #7
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Okay, so here's a related question--if I see someone do something weird like this and I instinctively hesitate, should I abort my plan or just continue with it? Does villain seeing me hesitate mean he's going to call me down light now?

That's the main reason I gave up, not because I was particularly worried he had the flush. He might, but I doubt it. After I hesitated I thought it through and decided he might call me down pretty light at that point so I just gave up.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:47 AM   #8
leavesofliberty
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Yes, abort. You're getting looked up which is why you hesitate-bet when you got it. Once in a blue moon you'll get raised after hesitating.

If you think he might cry call anyway, don't do it, but as described, I think he's folding.

Against rookies, you can use V's move yourself if you don't overdo it, and I've done it. It does not often work.

Re-reading it the be w/o hesitation boat has probably already sailed while you were contemplating a bet. Always cut your chips the same way and take a moderate amount of time.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 08-15-2017 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:15 AM   #9
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Okay, so here's a related question--if I see someone do something weird like this and I instinctively hesitate, should I abort my plan or just continue with it? Does villain seeing me hesitate mean he's going to call me down light now?

That's the main reason I gave up, not because I was particularly worried he had the flush. He might, but I doubt it. After I hesitated I thought it through and decided he might call me down pretty light at that point so I just gave up.
So, lesson learned. DO not be indecisive or fidgety (unless you are doing it as a reverse tell). You can tank, but when you decide to bet, ignore his posturing. Once you showed weakness, your chance of bluffing was low, and folding was fine.

I am a little nitty here, as I have been looked up way too many times by middle pair or tpnk, so I typically don't bluff unless I have seen the person fold before to aggression. Some players are way too sticky to play for stacks with a bluff.

Question-how would you have played this hand if you had a flush draw? What about if you had flopped tptk or a set?
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:20 AM   #10
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Yes, abort. You're getting looked up which is why you hesitate-bet when you got it. Once in a blue moon you'll get raised after hesitating.

If you think he might cry call anyway, don't do it, but as described, I think he's folding.

Against rookies, you can use V's move yourself if you don't overdo it, and I've done it. It does not often work.

Re-reading it the be w/o hesitation boat has probably already sailed while you were contemplating a bet. Always cut your chips the same way and take a moderate amount of time.
I am never as overt as staring the guy down while posturing, that is a little too obvious. What I will do is 1) lean back and open my hands if I see him looking up to make it clear that I don't care if he is sizing up my stacks, and 2) I might subtly preload. For example, if I see him cutting out a standard size bet, I might pick up a stack big enough to raise. BUt I don't do it obviously. I do it as if I was unconsciously getting ready to act and just wanted to save time.

You want to make the action 1) seem natural, 2) seem very relaxed, and 3) not seem like you are posturing for show. Sometimes I will grab my chips while appearing to pay little attention to the villain (look at my phone, talk to another player...whatever you can do as long as it is not forced)
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:48 AM   #11
Shai Hulud
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
So, lesson learned. DO not be indecisive or fidgety (unless you are doing it as a reverse tell). You can tank, but when you decide to bet, ignore his posturing. Once you showed weakness, your chance of bluffing was low, and folding was fine.
I always tank when making a big bet. If I have a nutted hand I have to decide how much to bet, and if I have nothing I have to figure out the probability it succeeds plus how much to bet. So I almost always tank at least 15 seconds. This is what I did here, then I pick up the chips and I wasn't even looking at the guy but he leans in and sticks his chips so far out I catch it with my peripheral vision and stop. Guess that's when I screwed myself.

I should start wearing sunglasses. I don't feel like I need them to avoid giving tells but I can't really watch people without wearing them without them being aware I'm watching and drawing conclusions based on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
I am a little nitty here, as I have been looked up way too many times by middle pair or tpnk, so I typically don't bluff unless I have seen the person fold before to aggression. Some players are way too sticky to play for stacks with a bluff.

Question-how would you have played this hand if you had a flush draw? What about if you had flopped tptk or a set?
I would play it the same with a flush draw. Same with a set. TPTK depends on villain. I triple barrel sticky villains and double barrel the rest, either checking the turn or river depending on how threatening the board looks on the turn.

In general on any street I try to make my nutted hands and bluffs look the same.
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Old 08-16-2017, 04:04 AM   #12
leavesofliberty
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Re: Villain holds out chips as if to call when flush card appears on river

As long as your balanced, and your opponent makes you aware of him, which is the whole point. If you're aware he's going to call anyway, from his eyes, and you bet anyway, then he knows you have a strong hand that beats his medium hand. You should bet.
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