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Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

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Old 06-13-2017, 02:17 PM   #1
TheShakeDaddy
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Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

Example that actually happened to me in a tourney.

I have AA in LP. folds to me so I raise, BB calls.

BB is known to chase.

Flop: Spade, Diamond, Heart

Check, bet, call

Turn: Spade

Check, bet, call

River: Spade

Bet, and I Fold

I said "show if i fold?" before I folded the river, he agreed and he showed two spades for the flush.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the psychology behind why people say "show if i fold" OR "fold if i show" and what to do in spots where they say "no" or they don't respond.
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:27 PM   #2
PTMHM
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by TheShakeDaddy View Post
Example that actually happened to me in a tourney.

I have AA in LP. folds to me so I raise, BB calls.

BB is known to chase.

Flop: Spade, Diamond, Heart

Check, bet, call

Turn: Spade

Check, bet, call

River: Spade

Bet, and I Fold

I said "show if i fold?" before I folded the river, he agreed and he showed two spades for the flush.

I guess I'm trying to figure out the psychology behind why people say "show if i fold" OR "fold if i show" and what to do in spots where they say "no" or they don't respond.
The whole show if I fold comment definitely varies in intention. It can be used to gain information even when you're not making a big laydown. However, if someone's visibly struggling to decide on what to do and they say show if I fold I take that as a general indication of hand strength. Usually it denotes that they don't have the absolute nuts and could be beat, but have a hand they believe to be strong enough to possibly warrant a call. In your case it was a situation where backdoor spades gets there and it's harder to believe that villain has it.

Asking to show upon folding is also a way to get your opponent to verbally engage with you at the table to potentially give off information. Not a bad way to gauge someone's hand strength.

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Old 06-14-2017, 12:50 AM   #3
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

For the "yes" type responses to the "Will you show if I fold?" type questions: in my experience, the "yes" answers have a lot of variety and are easily capable of being either value-bettors or bluffers. This is because I think most people understand that, at least on the surface, saying "yes" to such a question seems like something a bluffer would do. Because it's mostly understood, you'll see a lot of variety.

The real value comes when the player answers "No," because bluffers are generally unwilling to be rude, so if the response seems dismissive or rude or agitated, this will generally be a clue of strength. A bluffer, if he chooses to answer at all, will usually just say something neutral or ambiguous. He doesn't want to say "No" very directly because he's worried about what reaction that will cause and he's afraid of a frustration-call.

So long story short: you can make some good folds based on the "No" type responses but it'll generally be hard to draw useful info from the "Yes" responses.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:07 AM   #4
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

If no is reliably a made hand, then either a non answer, or a yes has more bluffs in it.
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:37 PM   #5
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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If no is reliably a made hand, then either a non answer, or a yes has more bluffs in it.
Very slightly true, but remember that the No behavior is rare, and the Yes and No-Answer behaviors contain varying amounts of strong and weak hands, so it's hard to get much value out of those.

It's a point I make a lot in my books and videos: The absence of a poker tell is not always (or even often) a tell.

There's usually one meaning that is significant and unusual while the absence or opposite of that behavior is "camouflaged" by the usual M.O/behavior a player has.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:45 AM   #6
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

My view, be the aggressor in the poker equivalent of "show and tell". Offer to show exactly one card at times to throw them off, and ask for one card from them when you think it'd be advantageous. Bawk at anyone who asks to see both as being a peeping tom, or just start to do a strip tease at the table. You can show one nipple but not both.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:57 AM   #7
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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It can be used to gain information even when you're not making a big laydown.
This all day long. Only a small minority when its really close for villain.
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:10 PM   #8
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

Another poster said this recently in a different thread, but I think it is worth repeating. If someone asks you "will you show if I fold", you should say "I might not even show if you call!"
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:45 PM   #9
PTMHM
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Another poster said this recently in a different thread, but I think it is worth repeating. If someone asks you "will you show if I fold", you should say "I might not even show if you call!"
That is awesome!

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Old 06-23-2017, 03:13 AM   #10
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Another poster said this recently in a different thread, but I think it is worth repeating. If someone asks you "will you show if I fold", you should say "I might not even show if you call!"
Definitely going to try that sometime.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:56 PM   #11
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Another poster said this recently in a different thread, but I think it is worth repeating. If someone asks you "will you show if I fold", you should say "I might not even show if you call!"
Just added to my game, thanks for sharing!
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Old 07-03-2017, 05:08 AM   #12
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

My standard response 100% of the time, "I'm not sure how to answer that"
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:48 AM   #13
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Another poster said this recently in a different thread, but I think it is worth repeating. If someone asks you "will you show if I fold", you should say "I might not even show if you call!"
I absolutely love this.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:36 AM   #14
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

been reading/posting on 2+2 for longer than I want to admit.

just stumbled into this forum for first time.

what a great forum. cant believe I never read it it until now.

doug polk;s "GTO trumps all" strategy aside, any live player not thinking about the things discussed in many of these threads is just lighting money on fire.

ditto on the "might not show even if you call" great line. If for nothing else than the lolz, but would certainly get in someones head and make them rethink whatever you thought they were about to do.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:15 AM   #15
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

Somewhat along the lines of OP, was recently in a game where a hand went to the river HU and P1 does the "If I fold will you show?" routine. P2's response was "It'll cost you $X to see it."
Don't remember the specific $ amount but it wasn't anything crazy. Believe it was $50ish into an $80 pot. i.e. "It'll cost you $50 to see it."

Any thoughts on that response in a vacuum? Felt like it may have indicated strength but curious what other's think.

FWIW, P1 folded so didn't get to see any cards.
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:50 PM   #16
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

^ Adversarial means higher probability of a bluff.
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:03 PM   #17
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Old 09-20-2017, 07:57 PM   #18
AaronBanks
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Another poster said this recently in a different thread, but I think it is worth repeating. If someone asks you "will you show if I fold", you should say "I might not even show if you call!"
This is gold
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:06 PM   #19
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

From what I've noticed from the less experienced players. They will often say yes when they are bluffing and no when they want a call. I wouldn't rely on these responses with the more experienced players, especially the ones that love to engage in speech play
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:02 PM   #20
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by apokerplayer View Post
For the "yes" type responses to the "Will you show if I fold?" type questions: in my experience, the "yes" answers have a lot of variety and are easily capable of being either value-bettors or bluffers. This is because I think most people understand that, at least on the surface, saying "yes" to such a question seems like something a bluffer would do. Because it's mostly understood, you'll see a lot of variety.

The real value comes when the player answers "No," because bluffers are generally unwilling to be rude, so if the response seems dismissive or rude or agitated, this will generally be a clue of strength. A bluffer, if he chooses to answer at all, will usually just say something neutral or ambiguous. He doesn't want to say "No" very directly because he's worried about what reaction that will cause and he's afraid of a frustration-call.

So long story short: you can make some good folds based on the "No" type responses but it'll generally be hard to draw useful info from the "Yes" responses.

What if you tell them "I never show" because you don't and really should only show when it benefits your table image? I agree with being friendly at the table but I don't agree with that transferring to actual game play, and this definitely does over time. I pretend to make a few big laydowns per session where I ask to see, and often get shown. They shouldn't show me.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:48 PM   #21
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

I think the benefit of "show if I tell?" is that it can make your adversary agitated and induce a tell. To read the tell you have to put it in the context. How did your adversary answer the question last time? Perhaps he'll look at his hand again, which often means he doesn't have a pocket pair because people remember pairs but will check to confirm that their cards are suited. My response is always a poker face. I stare blankly to the side, relax all the muscles in my face, and say nothing. It's very uncomfortable to look at someone who has no facial expression, and that often makes your adversary agitated. That can into inducee your adversary to make a mistake.
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Old 10-19-2017, 09:28 AM   #22
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

I ask that question to gain information, i just want him to talk, if he says anything then i can usually determine his hand strength. My mission is to get him to talk, if he says any sentence then i can gain information off him. Whether he says yes or no doesnt matter. If he doesnt talk then i just keep talking ; then it might annoy the **** out of him and get him to say somthing. If he maintains silence and emotionless then i cant get a single read off him.

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Old 10-19-2017, 12:38 PM   #23
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

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Originally Posted by Noto87 View Post
I ask that question to gain information, i just want him to talk, if he says anything then i can usually determine his hand strength. My mission is to get him to talk, if he says any sentence then i can gain information off him. Whether he says yes or no doesnt matter. If he doesnt talk then i just keep talking ; then it might annoy the **** out of him and get him to say somthing. If he maintains silence and emotionless then i cant get a single read off him.

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Good lord this is annoying.
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:55 AM   #24
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Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruhKGB View Post
Somewhat along the lines of OP, was recently in a game where a hand went to the river HU and P1 does the "If I fold will you show?" routine. P2's response was "It'll cost you $X to see it."
Don't remember the specific $ amount but it wasn't anything crazy. Believe it was $50ish into an $80 pot. i.e. "It'll cost you $50 to see it."

Any thoughts on that response in a vacuum? Felt like it may have indicated strength but curious what other's think.

FWIW, P1 folded so didn't get to see any cards.


This is very interesting. It frames the speech play differently. In response to an adversary fishing for a tell, a response such as this takes an imaginary intellectual “high road”.

Player 2 is saying something like:

“I know you are fishing. However, I am simultaneously smarter than you but also more reasonable than you. The information you are asking for has value, whether or not you actually want it. Therefore I offer it to you for X dollars. After all, we are all just poker players here, and we should be reasonable and fair to each other [this is a lie]. So, do you want the information or not?”

Of course, this should only be said by a willing speech player, and the amount asked for can be a tell or counter tell and leveled accordingly.

Did I read that correctly? At a cost of 50 dollars Player 1 could fold and give up a chance to win 80 but have peace of mind about doing so? If that was the actual terms of the offer it just shows how highly irrational humans can be.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:46 AM   #25
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Re: Thoughts behind the common "show if I fold?"

There's not much here to read, if anything. Player may act adversarial because they are interpreting your question as adversarial. It means basically zilch.
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