Under the firm opinion that there should be no talking multi way- not about the other person's hand, not about how unlucky you got when the runout is bad for your actual hand/ your opponent's range before you fold to player A when player C is still left to act.

At first I try not to be a dick about it, I'll just wait til the hands over, and then tell the player "it's not a huge deal, but you really shouldn't say anything like that in the middle of a hand," (if I was involved in the hand).

Got in a (borderline) argument the other night. Mostly friendly table, late night on a Friday, playing 2/5. For the second time in about an hour it had limped 5/6 ways to me in the straddle, and I'd bump it up from 10 to 80 or so. First time the button wasn't thrilled about it and took some time and made some facial expressions to insinuate he thought I was full of crap before folding. Whatever the first time, I laughed and showed him an ace.

Second time it happened, as soon as I raised it in the same spot, he goes "here we go again," and then with the action on him, and the SB and BB behind him tells me "I really don't believe you this time but ok," and throws it away.

Politely told him after the hand that saying things like that with other people left to act isn't totally cool. He pretty vehemently disagreed, and was fueled by the SB telling me "don't worry it didn't influence my action at all," tried to explain that that wasn't the point.

Table was pretty half and half about what is/isn't okay in that spot. Annoyingly, dealer stayed quiet on the situation, which bothers me a bit, because I feel like this is something they should enforce during a hand, and if not, certainly agree with the correct side post hand so it doesn't happen again.

Making too big of a deal? Or don't worry about it so much?

I agree with you in principle, but in the examples you are citing you are being too sensitive. You're objecting to a guy's facial expressions??

Mostly you don't want players giving away information about their hand or their future actions in a multiway pot, as this is not public information and can influence the action assymmentrically. Extremely broad speculation about the strength of a raiser's hand on the basis of no real information, while technically against the rules, is pretty innocuous.

Your definitely right but being over the top about it can put a target on you. Not saying you didn't handle it correctly but have to tread carefully. Dealer should be stopping these things themselves. Could talk to a floor and just let him know discreetly so he could coach the dealer for the future.

Realistically its hard enough to get these people to understand why they shouldn;t scream but i folded the straight whne the flop comes ..... so trying to get them to understand the far more general type statement like .... "I don't believe you" is really just wasting your time. They don't get it and they never will and they need to say something there and here is why..... folding is losing. poker is a game of skill so losing reflects on their on their skill. But if they can show everyone how smart they are so they need to make this statement which guarantees they correct. You see if have a string hand they smart because they folded. If you have a weaker hand then they were smart because they told everyone you had a weak hand.

So focus your efforts on the really problematic statements and just accept that the milder stuff is part of poker culture

while you are totally right rules-wise, especially the first situation was really harmless. Second one is a little worse but still nothing you should worry about at a good table. Personally, I'd get upset as soon as the guy says something like "this time I'll fold my ace" or "I'd call you with KQ or better here but right now my kicker is just too bad".

As far as the dealer goes, they have very good reasons not to get involved. Especially not when the table is split on an issue. If you really feel the need to do something, call the floor.

I don't care at all about this level of commentary mid hand. It's not malicious, these guys feel the need to posture in order to inform you that they won't be pushed around. That means that they are a) insecure and b) bad at poker.

Generally if you "show respect" to this kind of person, they will like you, and that means that they will explain their thought process to you, show their hands to you when they don't have to and maybe even softplay you now and again.

Conversely if you "challenge" them, by say pulling them up on poker rules, they get upset and defensive.

So unless I think it's causing damage to the game or affecting my bottom line in some way, this is all water off a duck's back to me.

I'm sorry I must be missing something here.
You're saying the dealer shouldn't get involved when there is a disagreement at the table about an actual rule?

The dealer is there to run the game smoothly, not to interpret the facial expressions of players and decide if those expressions constitute a rules violation.

You want this person in the game. Why would you try to make them mad?

please tell me what very good reason the dealer has not to enforce the rules.


As far as the dealer goes, they have very good reasons not to get involved. Especially not when the table is split on an issue. If you really feel the need to do something, call the floor.[/QUOTE]

Here, I disagree. If there's a conversation about whether or not something is allowed (ie: talking multiway or some other commonly misinterpreted or unenforced rule), and the dealer sits there silently, knowing the correct answer and not saying anything, it's only going to fuel the incorrect party to thinking they're right.

I can understand the dealer not getting involved in fictitious one-off arguments that are bound to never actually occur or become a problem. But to stay silent on an issue like "can you not talk multi way" or "can you keep your big chips in front," is actually a situation where not correcting the incorrect party is going to result in them continuing to act the same way because no one is telling them they actually can't.

Granted in your hyperbolic scenario, then yeah, fair enough. But yeah I see why dealers are hesitant to "choose sides" in disagreements like this. I'm just not sure at what point it actually becomes their obligation to correct someone.

Yeah true, should probably be more tolerable of guys contributing $ to the game if they're not egregiously doing anything outside of the rules. For whatever reason the talking about how skeptical you are of a play while another is left to act really erks me

Same reason a waiter doesn't want to enforce rules if that means he is going to alienate customers.

And again, we are not talking about a clear cut rule here that says what words are allowed and what words are not allowed. Players are not allowed to talk about the content of their hand in a multiway pot. They also should not influence the action in any way. But there's no way to tell if something influences the action or not, unless another player says it did influence his decision and we want to believe him. Maybe saying "I folded pocket 5s" can't influence the action because all other players listen to music? Then again maybe one is a lip reader? Or player B sneezes while player A decides. Did B break any rule if A says that the sneezing made him fold?

So the guy limp-folded to you twice, and you politely but firmly tap the glass. If I was to say anything to him, it'd be a lot closer to, "I'm getting a beer. Can I get you anything?"

The following things happen when I'm dealing and attempt to stop players commenting during a multi-way pot, or heads up in rooms that have blanket no talking rules.

1) I get yelled at 90% of the time, and this often continues for the rest of the down.
2) The person who I scolded now has an excuse to not tip (if it's a cash game)
3) It slows down the action and becomes an additional distraction than can further alter play, which I try to avoid.
4) The scolded player rarely admits fault or stops the behavior because "It's part of the game" or "they should be allowed to have fun"
5) If I call the floor over it stops the game, annoys the floor who thinks I'm unable to control the table, and winds up with them saying "don't do it again" and walking away.
6) If I'm challenged to state exactly what they can and can't say I have no good answer, because the rule books are usually vague and different rooms/floors/dealers interpret them very differently.

I do step in when I feel it's necessary, but my day is generally easier and more lucrative when I don't.

My experience has been largely the same when playing. If I speak up it will assuredly cause me grief and probably not cause much good so I tend to not say anything unless it's really bad or the player seemed to genuinely not realize they were doing it.

[/QUOTE]
Because an attempt to strictly enforce this rule on such mild cases in a poker culture that generally accepts them is more likely to only cause problems and achieve very little in actual game protection.

What is said does not have to influence action to be wrong. Even if what is said only MAY or CoULD influence action, the it crosses the line. But getting this strictly enforced will not happen.

so you are saying customer retention is such an important issue to a dealer that they will risk breaking the rules. Please tell me what floors/supervision encourage this so I can never play/work there.

There is a level of stuff that needs to be tolerated. If you upset the entire table over some trivial issue does it matter that you are right. Now the problem occurs that some dealers are not effective at drawing the line and allow to much to go by.....

Was thinking about my response, then figured that it would basically only repeat what psandman said:
Enforcing the rules is important. But turning the table into a no-fun-zone will eventually kill the game. If you want to make people miserable, start working in a Verizon call center instead.

IMO this all goes into the box of mildly annoying but pretty standard stuff you have to deal with in live poker. I'd just keep my mouth shut. Other examples include open folding in a MW pot, friends/regs checking it down explicitly or implicitly, betting or calling out of turn, etc.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, being a rules nit is rarely, if ever, +EV

i am the biggest advocate of not being a rules nit. but i firmly tell people when i am in a pot that there is no talking about hands while it is multiway.

and that helps all as the bad players do hear and will think during the hand instead of just reacting.

but it is the dealers job to enforce the rules....

it sure is and if they dont i may point it out if i feel it benefits me to do so.

But it is kind of too late then because they have already said something that might have affected the hand.
If the same thing happens 30 minutes later, all you can do is ask them politely not to talk during the hand .
The alleged damage, if any, has already been done.