Interested in input from other players as to what occurred.

This hand was the last hand before the second tournament break of a bounty tournament. The three players relevant to the hand are I (seat 7, little over 30,000 in chips), seat 6 with 12,000 in chips and seat 1 who should have us both covered. Down to 20 players in tournament, plays out top 8. A third table has broken about 10-15 minutes before and I've folded the previous 7-8 hands. The button is in either seat 2 or 3. Cards are dealt out and player six moves all in (she's also folded the previous hands and she has Kc6c) when it is her turn to act. I immediately verbally announce that I am all in (AsKs) and first move my bounty card and then chips across the betting line. I've snap shoved to show strength and to isolate myself and her. Players in the other two seats behind me fold. Player in seat 1 (has tripled up three/four hands ago and has won the last few hands) asks for a chip count (8c8x). This is where the dealer error occurs. The dealer proceeds to break down seat 6 and get a count of her chips. The player in seat 1 is told her chips and verbally announces a call. Why is the dealer counting down the lower of the two all ins? My bet is the higher of the two and it is clearly visible that I have more chips. I can only think that the dealer was counting her down with regards to how the table action occurred. She was first to act before me but that is the only reason as to why. I ask the dealer as to why the bet is 12,000 when I have priority in overall chip amount. I do remember saying, “Don’t screw me on this.” The floor is called over to review the issue. Standing behind the dealer’s left and behind player one’s right, the dealer explains to the tournament director (TD) where we are currently at and what the issue is. I’ve stated to the TD my actions, which I verbally announced all in and proceeded to move a bounty card and chips across the line. Seat 10 and seat 5 are insistently stating that seat 1 announced call so it’s a verbal binding call; they bring this up multiple times during the review of the situation. TD announces that seat 1 can either a) call the 12,000 and fold since the hand would be considered dead or b) call the entire amount. This has to be explained out to him a few times by the TD, dealer and players at the table. My chips are eventually broken down by the dealer and I remember the overlay of four yellow stacks (5,000 per stack) being on the felt. Two red chips (5,000) for the majority of the 12,000 that I have covered and my remaining amount were counted with the TD being at the table. I believe that seat 1 first wanted to only call the 12,000 but it had to be explained that he would have to fold after that. I also believe that he put the out the chips for a call of only the 12,000 but it once more had to be explained that he would then fold. It does not seem that he agrees with that. During this entire time, he never once announces, on his own, that the overall amount does not matter to him and he will call. The end result is that he finally calls (which it seems as if he is forced into by the table and TD). Board runs out club-club-club, turn club and blank river. Seat 6 wins the main pot with a flopped flush and seat 1 wins the side with a flush and I am eliminated. I get up, frustrated, and tell the dealer, “Thanks for screwing me over.” If seat 1 had folded and only I and seat 6 were the only two players, I would have lost the pot and still be in the tournament. Should the dealer have correctly announced the binding amount that was owed for a call, then that would have changed the action and what followed. So all of these factors (having the other two players persistently saying it is a call, the dealer and TD constantly explaining the TD’s ruling) influenced his overall decision within the hand.

My main point is that seat 1 was forced into a call. The player didn't take it upon himself to play his hand as he could have cleared it all up by verbally stating he would call it all off. It didn't seem as if he even took into account the table action before him. Two all-ins before you act. You've got to at least think about the hand and if it is good. He basically asked for a count after action was on him, got the incorrect account from the dealer and verbally called that amount. I understand it happens but there's gotta be a point as to making sure I'm covered when the errors do occur.

If I am reading this correctly, Dealer made a mistake, Player 1 called based on that mistake, mistake was corrected, Player 1 was given the option of forfeiting the committed chips or calling, which is not an uncommon ruling. He called, you lost.

If I read your wall of text correctly, Dealer announced the bet at 12,000 and player 1 called before you were able to stop action? Or you didn't try and stop action and only protested after player 1 acted with the incorrect information?

What part of this am I not understanding that justifies your feeling of bitterness and anger?

It's a common ruling, I do understand.

Dealer announced 12,000 (incorrectly) which lead to the whole issue. I asked why he stated 12,000 when it was clearly 30,000. It happened rather quickly so couldn't stop to tell the dealer to announce the correct amount to player 1. That was the first information that player 1 received, that the bet was 12,000. I was frustrated, not bitter over it. Believe me, you'll know when I'm angry.

So you feel screwed over?

When the player asked how much the bet was and the dealer counted the small stack WHY DID YOU Not SAY SOMETHING?

You were more than happy to watch the dealer make the error when you thought the person getting screwed over was your opponent. But after the board runs out and you lose .... In your mind the dealer screwed you over?

I brought up the error as soon as it occurred. As soon as the player was told the bet amount, I asked the dealer why. Did I not clearly note this in the account?

No. What you wrote was "Why is the dealer counting down the lower of the two all ins? My bet is the higher of the two and it is clearly visible that I have more chips.”

You watched the dealer break down and count what you said was obviously the smaller stack.

That was plenty of time to speak up. But from what you have written you waited until the other player was given the wrong amount AND CALLED based on the wrong info.

She had less chips and moved them across the betting line with the bounty card on top. I announced all in, then moved bounty card and chips. During the time I'm moving my stacks, he is counting hers down. He announces hers as the bet, I immediately note I have more chips, "Why are you counting her down?" It's immediate, if I made it unclear.

What exactly is your question? Looks like dealer messed up and floor ruled in the correct way. Do you question any of that or is there another question or did you just want to tell us the story of how you got eliminated from the tournament as a slight underdog?

So what is the order of these events:

A. Dealer breaks down and counts the smaller stack.

B. You speak up about the Dealer counting the smaller stack.

C. Opponent announces CALL.

If it's as you are now suggesting
A B C

Then I don't see how a dealer error caused any problem since if this is the case the player had knowledge that the bet wasn't 12000 because you spoke up and corrected it before he said call.

A, C then B. Dealer is breaking down her stack, gets the amount and relays it to seat one. Seat 1 says call, I ask why the dealer is counting the smaller stack.

does this thread happen if you win the pot?

I may inquire as to why the action occurred the way it did, but probably with not as much force.

I think the only thing that went against you in this hand was the fact that you lost a coin flip. Actually you were an underdog since seat 6 had one of your outs.

You seem to be backtracking from your OP. Your OP seemed to suggest that you were wondering to yourself why the dealer was counting the small stack. Then you didn't speak up until after Seat 1 called. Now you backtrack and try to say that you spoke up before the call. It really probably doesn't matter in the end from what happened, but it certainly sounds like you were hoping seat 1 would be forced into a 30k call when he thought he was calling 12k.

To me, the TD's ruling was as close to helping you as it could get. He easily could have actually forced Seat 1 to call the big bet as opposed to kinda-sorta forcing him as you imply.

This doesn't even have to be asked.

You sound pleasant. It's a standard spot that a player acted on bad info. It happens...a lot. Most players in casual tournaments aren't paying much attention, especially when they get excited that they have a good hand. The good ruling came in and he was allowed to fold and forfeit the 12K or complete action for the rest.

Sorry you lost a coin flip. You should think about how you place blame here. It's a leak in your game. Cards are cards and everything will happen in the exact probability it should over the course of time.


If a dealer pitches a card that gets exposed and replaces it with a king to give you pocket kings and you bust out because you get it all in against someone's aces, it's literally just your fragile ego to blame the dealer instead of accepting that **** happens and sometimes the mistake will even go in your favor (but you'll only remember the times it goes against you, I'm sure of it).


On behalf of the dealer you were a rude dick to, I'm really glad you got busted out.

How could the calling player not realize you had the much larger stack, 30k vs 12k, when you and the 12k player are sitting right next to each other? Sounds like he was trying to angleshoot so if he lost, he would claim it was 12k, but if he won he would take your 30k. But he got caught prior to the cards running out.

As an angle, it is an awful one, as no floor would ever rule in favor of the caller. If he calls, and additional cards come out and he loses, he is 100% paying the full bet.

Much more likely that the caller was either not paying attention, or was unable to see from the 1 seat to the 7 seat clearly enough to sight count the chips (a lot of players can't see well or are color blind. A 30K stack might not be bigger, size wise, than a 12K stack, so it might not be obvious to someone who can't see well which is the larger stack).

I put the odds that this was a deliberate angle by the caller at about 0.1%. Asking for a count when you can see the approximate values of each stack, hoping that the dealer would count the wrong stack, then calling the miscounted bet in the hopes that you can freeroll turn and river in the belief that 1) the dealer won't make the piots right before rolling turn and river, and 2) the floor will rule 'I call' does not mean 'I call' is a pretty poor angle shot.

Or he thought the player said call, not all in.

To simplify your post, here is how you explained the order of events...
IMO the floor has 2 options here as rulings. He could either:

1 - force seat 1 to call your all in bet as "verbal is binding" and he has the responsibility to follow the action no matter whether the dealer gives him the wrong count or not. Or...

2 - give seat 1 the option to fold and forfeit the 12k or call your all in.

He went with option 2 (my guess is because there was a dealer error involved and he wanted to compensate for that somewhat). Perfectly good ruling.

As soon as the dealer started to count seat 6's chips, you should have spoke up. Either way, it sounds like seat 1 would have possibly called you if he knew the correct amount. Who knows, but the ruling was a good one and it could have been avoided if you spoke up sooner.

First of all, you should be honest with yourself about your raging monkey tilt. It's obvious to all of us.

Second, from the level of detail about the hand (including what the villains have done on the previous hands, lol), you're clearly fishing for compliments. And if that's what you want, then yes, you played the hand well. Stop the story before the board comes out (the results don't matter, that's just you BBV begging for sympathy).

Third, be clear about what you want. Which do you prefer, Seat 1 folds or Seat 1 calls? If you want him to call, then you got your wish. If you want him to fold, then you should have spoken up as soon as dealer reached for the short stack (not even waited for it to be counted).

Change Seat 1's hand to one of the other three 88 combos with no club - does what you want change? Change Seat 1's hand to any other hand in his calling range - maybe 22 or KQs or AJo - and run the board infinity times - how many instances do you suddenly want to go back and change the ruling?

You crushed this hand like a pro and left the table like a butthurt first time player.

Were 'All In' buttons in use? Was there one in front of you? Typically the placement of a Bounty Chip into the betting area is considered an all-in, so the 'need' for an 'All In' button is less here IMO.

1) It's your opponent's responsibility (not the Dealer's) to know what action they are facing.

Is there really a Dealer error here? If I were dealing I might count down the stacks in the order of the all-ins as well, starting with the first player all-in whether it was the short stack or not. Depending on how this all went down and how the Dealer announced the total could create some options here and result in a Dealer error. I'm not sure I've read enough here to know exactly how the Dealer announced the 12,000. If the Player announced 'I call' before the Dealer could move on to count your stack then that's on the Player, not the Dealer IMO.

In a quick glance of TDA 2015 I can't find an verbiage about 'misunderstood action' as typically shown in RRules. But typically, and especially in a tournament, chips that cross the line stay out there even if misunderstood.

Here is an exert form TDA 2017 ..
53: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others. If a caller requests a count but receives incorrect information from a dealer or player, then pushes out that amount, the caller has accepted the full correct action & is subject to the correct wager or all-in amount. As with all situations, Rule 1 may apply at TD’s discretion.

You definitely feel that the opponent would've folded if they had known the full amount. That's fine, it's very possible but also not certain.

As stated in other posts, I think you got the best of the two options. The Floor certainly didn't force your opponent to call the extra 18K, but he did enforce the rules of the game by holding him to the 12K that the Dealer counted out. The fact that the opponent didn't pay attention to you/your stack/chips/bounty chip AND PERHAPS the Dealer didn't fully articulate or move 'fast enough' is just a matter of circumstance rather than 'blame' for a bad beat.

What is interesting about your post is you just state ccc,c,b for the Board ... did you hit an Ace or King in there? Or would the 88 have held without the flush?

Would I have been upset? Perhaps (and very possible) and it really sucks when these spots pop up at critical times and have the worst possible result. 2nd break and you were already approaching the money? Turbo? What were the blinds at the time? How far was the 18K going to get you in the next level?

I think the responses here have been pretty tame from what they could've been. We all hope it goes the other way next time for some karma or balance. GL

OP goes all in and loses in totally standard spot. OP knows God loves him best, therefore outcome must be Dealers' fault. Or the Floor's fault or something. Anyway somebody is to blame! It can't just be the luck of the draw....

I would be very mad at what happened.

The Dealer makes a mistake. At best he didn't realize you said "All In" and thought you said call. At worst he is totally incompetent. Its not clear which yet.

The Floor can fix this because he can do anything in the best interest of the game and the 3rd player should not be held to a call of 12,000 because of a Dealer mistake. So I think the Floor makes a mistake here as well. You can speak up but it will look like you don't want a call (which you explained you didn't want) so it hurts you to speak up as well.

Basically you got screwed.

The problem is that if I direct my anger at the Dealer this kind of thing will happen over and over and over again. And I will always be the victim. Unless I manage to win a flip which is so unlikely given how bad a person I am and how much God hates me.

Anyway.

Your job now is to make sure this never happens again. Its a classic protect your hand/ protect your action situation. The reason you have to protect your hand/action is because other people are human and make mistakes. It is always going to be "not your fault". And it is always going to be very painful. Unless...

In order to most clearly make sure everybody and especially the Dealer knows that you are going all in:
- Request an All-in button before proceeding and put it in front of you
- Put out your bounty chips first and say loud and clear "I am all In". If you have a foreign accent do the best you can.
- Take your two largest denomination chips and put them all out in one motion after you have declared all in. Then quickly move the rest of your chips.
- Pay attention to the next people to act. If this exact situation occurs again, instruct the dealer to "Stop!" People will accuse you of being an *******. Anger management issues etc. That hurts less than getting knocked out of a tournament. Make sure he starts counting your chips before he finishes counting the other players. And if he argues with you, tell him you have more chips than the other player and you are also all in. The Dealer may very well be competent and let you know that he will also be counting your stack. However it is best if he counts the larger stack first so the 3rd player doesn't erroneously call. Again...

Good luck.

OP has been waiting for you. However, I 100% disagree with you.

100% is a lot.

I would prefer 99.8%