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Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

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Old 07-30-2017, 01:40 AM   #1
Motorola
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A player pretending they made a mistake

I fell for this a few years ago when just starting to play live.

I raised, and the opponent last to act puts some chips in , and then goes 'oh damn' and makes out they didn't mean to , that they meant to just call 'i meant to call ha'.

I had 99 and ended up getting it in preflop as they had effectively put me all in, of course they had aces.

Is this ok? like an ok thing to do in a live card room?

I guess it's not breaking any rules, but left me feeling pretty sour. Was i just beaten by a better player able to manipulate me at the table? Or was this very dodgy?

If it's ok. I'll start doing it myself.
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Old 07-30-2017, 05:21 AM   #2
leavesofliberty
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

It's up to you whether it's okay or not. These plays are usually strong hands expressed with creativity. They do work against weaker opponents. It is entirely within the rules. It is a manipulative play based on the thought that others dream of having the luck of someone "accidentally" raising them, and such, so it does have some commonality with confidence artistry. But, it is not fraud in my humble opinion. It is dubious, and exemplifies distrustful behavior. In short, I would not want to do business with such a person.
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Old 07-30-2017, 11:56 AM   #3
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

Borderline scummy, but completely within the rules. As liberty said, its intended target is usually new, weaker players who fall for the trap of not seeing it for what it really is. Weak is strong, strong is weak.

Threw in his stack or raise and said call afterwards, angle. Said raise, then thrown in a call and held to a min-raise, angle.
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Old 07-30-2017, 10:42 PM   #4
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

Great thanks for the feedback leavesofliberty and refinedsugar , i don't think i'd ever do this myself. I don't think you have to be cut-throat to be a good successful poker player.

I kind of thought it was very uncool at the time, but I lost the pot, so I guess I would.

A good lesson learnt.

refinedsugar your reply has reminded me of something similar in live poker i've noticed.

Quote:
Weak is strong, strong is weak.
Not related with strength of hand, but still following this 'opposites pattern'. When I wanted someone to call me before, I think I said save your chips, and tried to make it sound semi genuine. The player did fold, perhaps I made it seem too genuine!

I fell for the same move , which is terrible, given I had said something similiar months before.

I was playing an MTT, and player said, save your chips... I had a marginal hand, ended up calling, they were super strong.

So this 'save your chips' line, actually meant, please call me.

I didn't deliberately set out to manipulate my opponent when I said it and wanted them to call me, it was just something I said instinctively on the spur of the moment when I wanted them to call me.

But you just reminded me of it, with the talk of opposites (weak/strong) etc.

Have you encountered this line before? Do you find it to mean, 'call me please' if you have?

Extrapolating this idea, do experienced live players, typically think it's a wise idea to just basically assume the opposite is true of what ever anyone says at a poker table, during a hand? Or is that too simplisitc?
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Old 07-31-2017, 11:11 AM   #5
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

This is considered by many (including me) to be an angle, but usually a pretty transparent one. Others, including DNegs, consideres the fake misclick to be more out of line than any other type of misdirection play.

A variation of this play which i s not considered an angle is to intentionally make a common chip error. For example, in tournaments where blinds are low (under 200) but big chips (like 5k) are in play, open raise with two $100 and a $5000 chip when you have the a big hand. Most people will assume that you meant to raise to $700, not $5200, and may look you up light.

While putting on a big act about a mistake is considered scummy by many, purposefully putting in odd bets that people assume is a mistake is not.
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Old 07-31-2017, 01:11 PM   #6
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

I think what you're referring to is reversals, Motorola. Those can be tricky. Can go either way and we run the danger of leveling ourselves trying to dissect them.
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:46 PM   #7
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

Everytime somebody pulls the oldest trick in the book on a new player, other regs in the game look at each other in disbelief to see that one work again.

It's an angle, but so obvious that it's more funny than disgusting.

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A variation of this play which i s not considered an angle is to intentionally make a common chip error.
I've never heard anyone saying this is not angle.
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Old 07-31-2017, 10:10 PM   #8
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Everytime somebody pulls the oldest trick in the book on a new player, other regs in the game look at each other in disbelief to see that one work again.

It's an angle, but so obvious that it's more funny than disgusting.


I've never heard anyone saying this is not angle.
This was in a thread awhile back. I put forth the scenerio where you put in a very large overbet with a strong hand, in one case you say 'Oh, damn, I thought that was 500t chip, not 5k', the other scenerio you say nothing. Unanimously, everyone agreed the first was an angle, but in the second case, you are free to bet any amount you would like and it not be considered an angle.

I personally think they are the same.
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Old 08-01-2017, 06:30 PM   #9
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
This was in a thread awhile back. I put forth the scenerio where you put in a very large overbet with a strong hand, in one case you say 'Oh, damn, I thought that was 500t chip, not 5k', the other scenerio you say nothing. Unanimously, everyone agreed the first was an angle, but in the second case, you are free to bet any amount you would like and it not be considered an angle.

I personally think they are the same.
The second one is not an intentional chip error, it's just an overbet. If you don't pretend that you made a mistake, it's obviously not an angle.

Putting in 5k into 1k without saying anything is a regular bet of 5 times the pot. Putting in 5k into 1k and claiming you wanted to bet 500 is an angle.
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:27 AM   #10
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
This is considered by many (including me) to be an angle, but usually a pretty transparent one. Others, including DNegs, consideres the fake misclick to be more out of line than any other type of misdirection play.

A variation of this play which i s not considered an angle is to intentionally make a common chip error. For example, in tournaments where blinds are low (under 200) but big chips (like 5k) are in play, open raise with two $100 and a $5000 chip when you have the a big hand. Most people will assume that you meant to raise to $700, not $5200, and may look you up light.

While putting on a big act about a mistake is considered scummy by many, purposefully putting in odd bets that people assume is a mistake is not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvyVCqjARRI
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Old 08-03-2017, 09:31 AM   #11
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Yeah, I mentioned above that he (Negeneau) considers this type of angle to be part of the game.

I actually do not have too much a problem with it. i consider it another form of table talk. As far as angles go, it is a mild one.

Last edited by SpewingIsMyMove; 08-03-2017 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 08-03-2017, 09:36 AM   #12
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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The second one is not an intentional chip error, it's just an overbet. If you don't pretend that you made a mistake, it's obviously not an angle.

Putting in 5k into 1k without saying anything is a regular bet of 5 times the pot. Putting in 5k into 1k and claiming you wanted to bet 500 is an angle.
I guess I wasn't clear in my original post,as I think we are agreeing.

Scenario one, bet call is 150, player accidentally puts out 5050, and says 'crap, that was supposed to be a call', original raiser goes all in, player calls and tables aces

Scenario two-same as above, except, after putting the 5050 bet out, player stays stock still, makes no comment, does not rwact at all.

Most people consider scenario one to be an angle, but do not consider scenario two to be an angle. i consider them to be about the same (as there is no real other interpretation for that bet other than a misclick).
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Old 08-03-2017, 02:24 PM   #13
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Most people consider scenario one to be an angle, but do not consider scenario two to be an angle. i consider them to be about the same (as there is no real other interpretation for that bet other than a misclick).
Scenario two is not an angle. Confusing your opponent with your bet sizing is part of the game, same as bluffing or check raising. It's only an angle if you claim to have intended another action and ask if you can change it.
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:38 PM   #14
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Scenario two is not an angle. Confusing your opponent with your bet sizing is part of the game, same as bluffing or check raising. It's only an angle if you claim to have intended another action and ask if you can change it.
Playing devils advocate, what is the difference between an action which really only has one interpretation, and explicitly stating that interpretation?

I am not disagreeing, per se. Everyone is absolutely free to bet how and what they would like, and that is in bounds of the game. I just find the distinction between betting in a way that looks like a misclick, and actually saying 'woops, I misclicked' to be a little blurry.

I also am not convinced that it should be out of bounds to say things that are misleading. Saying things like 'I'm on a draw', 'I haven't looked at my cards', etc. should not be considered angles in my book. The only time it is really an angle is when your words create an ambiguous situation where the other player may be acting under a mistaken interpretation of your action. So saying things like 'OK, let's see 'em' when facing an all-in should be considered an angle.
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:43 PM   #15
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

I don't think outright lying is part of the game so I consider it an angle. Playing deceptively and spewing lies is different though scummy people might laugh at the distinction.

In poker, I think it's okay to lie only if you're asked a question.

A pet peeve of mine is people volunteering what they had after the hand is over without ever showing their cards(if they do it regularly).
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:48 PM   #16
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Saying things like 'I'm on a draw', 'I haven't looked at my cards', etc. should not be considered angles in my book.
Hard Rock Vancouver considers the above angles as they can reasonably be expected to influence action. I witnessed a guy reraise and while his opponent was thinking he said, "I've got to protect my hand". He was warned by the dealer, got angry and called the pit and the pit supported the dealer.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:34 PM   #17
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Originally Posted by zica View Post
Hard Rock Vancouver considers the above angles as they can reasonably be expected to influence action. I witnessed a guy reraise and while his opponent was thinking he said, "I've got to protect my hand". He was warned by the dealer, got angry and called the pit and the pit supported the dealer.
What a load, they might as well tape the players' mouths shut
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:59 AM   #18
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

So what is scummier, somebody who throws out 100bb and tries to mislead you, or the guy who tries to take advantage of the guy who made an honest mistake?

I don't feel anything for either of these two idiots.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:11 AM   #19
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

I've seen this a couple times, you should look at the guys appearance if he looks shady like tattoos anything etc. he's prolly full of **** and yeah just treat it like a normal raise or w/e

If he's an old fragile man yeah its a honest mistake...
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:58 PM   #20
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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So what is scummier, somebody who throws out 100bb and tries to mislead you, or the guy who tries to take advantage of the guy who made an honest mistake?

I don't feel anything for either of these two idiots.
Why should I be penalized for someone else's mistake or angle? If I have a raising\isolating hand, why should it be considered bad form to raise someone's accidental overbet?
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:04 PM   #21
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
Why should I be penalized for someone else's mistake or angle? If I have a raising\isolating hand, why should it be considered bad form to raise someone's accidental overbet?
How are you being penalized?

You are making a decision based on all available information, and you should be aware that poker is a game of deception.

In almost all cases where people moan about being sucked into a bad position due to an angle, they are trying to capitalize on what they perceive as a mistake by the other player.

I'm not condoning angling, but overvaluing a hand like 99 or equivalent, or like how Hellmuth overvalues AJ and gets sucked into against Tony G's AK, these are clearly the other player trying to take advantage. In my limited experience, these situations usually occur when somebody with something like 55 ends up shoving 80bb pre against somebody who "accidentally" overbet and then get snapped off by KK/AA.

I tend to treat these situations like how you would face a 100 bet into a 1000 pot, which is, I tend to assume there's no significant action unless I'm relatively sure it is a genuine error.
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:15 PM   #22
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Re: A player pretending they made a mistake

Quote:
Originally Posted by zica View Post
Hard Rock Vancouver considers the above angles as they can reasonably be expected to influence action. I witnessed a guy reraise and while his opponent was thinking he said, "I've got to protect my hand". He was warned by the dealer, got angry and called the pit and the pit supported the dealer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyJoe113 View Post
What a load, they might as well tape the players' mouths shut
At Harrah's AC the instituted a rule last year that you're not allowed to talk about the hand at all, even heads up. One day I put in a river bet and said something like "If you have a set you have me beat" (I was telling the truth) and was warned by the dealer. I called the floor who confirmed it.
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