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Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

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Old 06-29-2018, 02:36 PM   #1
dannyboy6292
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The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

When you are betting a monster hand ( nuts etc) and wanting a call, heart rate speeds up. When you are bluffing a monster hand with jack squat, heart rate speeds up. Its all the same response. Fight or flight, both activate the same biochemical reaction in your central nervous system.

My take- guys that wear scarfs are really women trapped in mens bodies.

Seriously though, its not a tell because it works both ways. Fight or flight have the same biochemical reaction and in turn the same physical responses.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:49 AM   #2
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

Nice thread Dannyboy
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:58 PM   #3
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Diamond Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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Originally Posted by dannyboy6292 View Post
When you are betting a monster hand ( nuts etc) and wanting a call, heart rate speeds up. When you are bluffing a monster hand with jack squat, heart rate speeds up. Its all the same response. Fight or flight, both activate the same biochemical reaction in your central nervous system.

My take- guys that wear scarfs are really women trapped in mens bodies.

Seriously though, its not a tell because it works both ways. Fight or flight have the same biochemical reaction and in turn the same physical responses.
I've never heard of this neck tell before. Sounds a bit overrated though. It would be very difficult to see someone's pulse accurately from a normal distance away anyway.

People are probably more likely to have a faster heart rate when bluffing than betting with the nuts though. I guess it could be player dependent if it was indeed a reliable tell.
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Old 07-04-2018, 04:55 PM   #4
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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I've never heard of this neck tell before. Sounds a bit overrated though. It would be very difficult to see someone's pulse accurately from a normal distance away anyway.

People are probably more likely to have a faster heart rate when bluffing than betting with the nuts though. I guess it could be player dependent if it was indeed a reliable tell.
This is why they wear scarfs- really never heard of it?
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:44 PM   #5
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

Cmon danny, tell me you can watch a player for a cycle or three that has a normal 70BPM heart rate....then YOU can tell the difference if he has a 140BPM with a bluff or 135BPM with the goods?

smh
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Old 07-05-2018, 02:17 PM   #6
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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Cmon danny, tell me you can watch a player for a cycle or three that has a normal 70BPM heart rate....then YOU can tell the difference if he has a 140BPM with a bluff or 135BPM with the goods?

smh
LOL- exactly.
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:06 AM   #7
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

Some people are calm when they have it and not when they are bluffing. Others are calm when bluffing and not when they have it. Like all physical tells, it is up to you to figure out who is who.
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:14 AM   #8
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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Some people are calm when they have it and not when they are bluffing. Others are calm when bluffing and not when they have it. Like all physical tells, it is up to you to figure out who is who.
Agree- Have to find out which person they are. Tough to do in tourneys. Weekly cash games, yup.
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Old 07-07-2018, 01:14 PM   #9
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

I really dont know. Maybe you can use the tell in correlation with other tells.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:35 PM   #10
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

I agree the neck pulse is over-rated for general reads, for the reasons stated (players can get excited by betting big hands and bluffs).

Having said that, I do think they have their use. Strong, experienced players still get their blood pumping on big bluffs (I've talked to quite a few well-known pros who have told me that) while their big hands they no longer get excited about. That's why at the high-stakes games they wear scarves; because these guys are immune to big hand reactions but still can sweat a bit when pulling a big tourney bluff.

Also, it can be a player-specific thing; if you play with a guy a lot, you might start to notice he has this imbalance.

But yeah, I've never used a neck pulse read myself. Part of this is that I don't play tournaments, and I think it's mainly vs strong players in high-stakes tournaments where you're likely to get in a spot where you felt good acting on such a read. More rec players (like we said) are more all over the place.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:29 PM   #11
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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I agree the neck pulse is over-rated for general reads, for the reasons stated (players can get excited by betting big hands and bluffs).

Having said that, I do think they have their use. Strong, experienced players still get their blood pumping on big bluffs (I've talked to quite a few well-known pros who have told me that) while their big hands they no longer get excited about. That's why at the high-stakes games they wear scarves; because these guys are immune to big hand reactions but still can sweat a bit when pulling a big tourney bluff.

Also, it can be a player-specific thing; if you play with a guy a lot, you might start to notice he has this imbalance.

But yeah, I've never used a neck pulse read myself. Part of this is that I don't play tournaments, and I think it's mainly vs strong players in high-stakes tournaments where you're likely to get in a spot where you felt good acting on such a read. More rec players (like we said) are more all over the place.
So I went to your profile to check you out. Saw your Twitter profile and went to it. I recognized your name and was like, how the hell do I know this guys name?

Your book "Reading Poker Tells" is one of my favorite poker books in print. Truly a well thought out, well researched, well written easy read!

I have taught golf and boxing in my lifetime and often discussed with other teachers and coaches how the mark of a truly good coach, is one who is able to communicate complex ideas simply.

He/she is able to take years of painstaking trial and error experience, condense it and then communicate it to someone all the while recognizing their lack of ( or potential) experience and have it make sense.

Often teachers forget that at certain points in their respective careers certain advanced ideas may have only reached them through years of doing and perhaps introspective thinking. ( I am getting to my final point, I swear)

Your book can communicate to people of ALL poker skill levels and it did so eloquently. I am honored to be involved in a back and forth and I hope you continue to do well with the sales. I recommend it to anyone I meet who wants to get better at poker. In fact your book and Jared Tendlers are my two favorites of all time.

I would love to chat with you about a premise I hatched up about speaking tells and using 2 or 3 canned responses or statements on big river bluffs and big river bets.

ex- I flop a massive draw ( royal draw for sake of argument) in a big pot. I fire all streets only to be left with a big decision at the end, bluff or give up.

I say " Just fold, I got it" or something to that effect. I wonder if the results of that statement could be studied over the course of years?

Inversely if I DO have the nuts in a similar river bet situation and say the same "Just fold, I got it" and what the results are?

I know its always going to be different with different players styles cards settings but I think there is something to be said for my premise. Reason being...

In golf ( I played at a high level) all successful players have a pre shot routine. A series of events repeated over and over and over. A way to lull the brain to sleep to allow the subsconcious to take the wheel during times of pressure and duress.

Why not have a couple canned and rehearsed statements for when you got it and when you dont. So during a bluff you will look calm and cool because your statement has been rehearsed over and over and there will be no flight or flight response and thus look "calm."

Why cant a preshot ( or pre bluff) routine be established? Make the uncomfortable- comfortable by making it commonplace through practice?

( granted this happens with experience but I feel experience can be sped up exponentially if you know what you're going to do/say in big river bet/bluff situations.

respect,

Dan
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:20 AM   #12
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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Originally Posted by dannyboy6292 View Post

Your book "Reading Poker Tells" is one of my favorite poker books in print. Truly a well thought out, well researched, well written easy read!
Hey, man, means a lot, and I really mean that. I sell a good amount of books, but it's not too often people actually tell me what they thought of the books, so thank you for that.

Regarding your verbal tell thoughts; did you know I wrote a book called Verbal Poker Tells? I'm very proud of it, and it goes into common meanings of verbal stuff.

That doesn't really address your question about what to say to manipulate people. I do think there are probably generally useful things you can say in certain spots, as you think, and I have a few thoughts I've written down over the years. But I generally avoided putting those thoughts in public or in books, just because they were very half-baked and experimental and subjective, and I try to just put the stuff I can logically explain in the books.

But if you haven't read Verbal Poker Tells, I think you'd like it, and maybe you'd have some thoughts of your own for how to put that knowledge into a more offensive use.

Take care, sir.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:10 AM   #13
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

best is to say nothing as it makes him stop and think if you do.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:49 AM   #14
dannyboy6292
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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Hey, man, means a lot, and I really mean that. I sell a good amount of books, but it's not too often people actually tell me what they thought of the books, so thank you for that.

Regarding your verbal tell thoughts; did you know I wrote a book called Verbal Poker Tells? I'm very proud of it, and it goes into common meanings of verbal stuff.

That doesn't really address your question about what to say to manipulate people. I do think there are probably generally useful things you can say in certain spots, as you think, and I have a few thoughts I've written down over the years. But I generally avoided putting those thoughts in public or in books, just because they were very half-baked and experimental and subjective, and I try to just put the stuff I can logically explain in the books.

But if you haven't read Verbal Poker Tells, I think you'd like it, and maybe you'd have some thoughts of your own for how to put that knowledge into a more offensive use.

Take care, sir.
It is my pleasure and it's from the heart. I run into a lot of players of all skills sets and I always bring your book up when study is mentioned. I will check out the Verbal Poker Tells...
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Old 07-30-2018, 07:20 AM   #15
Shai Hulud
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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It is my pleasure and it's from the heart. I run into a lot of players of all skills sets and I always bring your book up when study is mentioned. I will check out the Verbal Poker Tells...
I asked Zach a similar question about manipulative verbal statements. It's kind of the inverse problem of studying tells. There are patterns of tells because people expect some of their behaviors to manipulate results toward their favor. I've been very curious which such patterns actually manipulate successfully and which are just "reverse tells".

As for your example, maybe three or four times I've double barreled with a big draw heads up. On the river I brick and as I'm gathering my bet my opponent says something like "I don't know what the heck you got but I got a set. I'd save your money". And I always react skeptically and fire the third barrel and sure enough the guy had what he said he did. Granted this is a sample of like 5 or 6 hands. Makes it hard to properly study.

I've also run into people lying about hand strength a few times but this is when they're the aggressor. Like this guy bet/bet overshoved river on AQ292tt where I have AT. He's OTB in a limped pot so I'm excluding better aces and sets. And I ask him OTR "You really have a deuce?" And he doesnt seem to hear me but says "what's that?" And I repeat "you really have a deuce?" And he says "I've got two of them". This makes me hyper suspicious and I call. He had total air.

My pattern is pretty much all blatant strong hand statements make me suspicious. I figure your example is like that. With overly suspicious people you might influence them toward a call. With trusting people you might influence them towards a fold.

It's an interesting subject. I'm a lot better at this point at reading manipulations than trying them out myself.
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:54 AM   #16
dannyboy6292
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Re: The neck tell is baloney: Heres why:

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
I asked Zach a similar question about manipulative verbal statements. It's kind of the inverse problem of studying tells. There are patterns of tells because people expect some of their behaviors to manipulate results toward their favor. I've been very curious which such patterns actually manipulate successfully and which are just "reverse tells".

As for your example, maybe three or four times I've double barreled with a big draw heads up. On the river I brick and as I'm gathering my bet my opponent says something like "I don't know what the heck you got but I got a set. I'd save your money". And I always react skeptically and fire the third barrel and sure enough the guy had what he said he did. Granted this is a sample of like 5 or 6 hands. Makes it hard to properly study.

I've also run into people lying about hand strength a few times but this is when they're the aggressor. Like this guy bet/bet overshoved river on AQ292tt where I have AT. He's OTB in a limped pot so I'm excluding better aces and sets. And I ask him OTR "You really have a deuce?" And he doesnt seem to hear me but says "what's that?" And I repeat "you really have a deuce?" And he says "I've got two of them". This makes me hyper suspicious and I call. He had total air.

My pattern is pretty much all blatant strong hand statements make me suspicious. I figure your example is like that. With overly suspicious people you might influence them toward a call. With trusting people you might influence them towards a fold.

It's an interesting subject. I'm a lot better at this point at reading manipulations than trying them out myself.
You hit the nail on the head. To take it a step further- why not have a canned response or something you say when you are in both positions- bluffing huge on the river or potentially calling a big bet with a bluff catching hand?

Having a statement/response that you feel extremely comfortable with that you have rehearsed the delivery over and over. This way it comes off as natural even if you are being deceitful.

I believe information can be attained and its normally when someone is genuinely nervous. I again equate this "ritual" if you will to a pre shot routine in golf. Something you repeat verbatim over and over and over, thus allowing you some comfort during times of duress because its comfortable.

I really enjoy this dialogue you opened up...
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