I was playing 1/2 at the Hard Rock in Tampa a couple days ago, in seat 5, and there was this middle-aged Asian man sitting to my right in seat 6, playing a shortish to medium stack. It was actually hard to tell how much he had since he'd mix the green chips with the red chips randomly in one stack, but I'd guess it was around 70BB-90BB. (Side question -- is it legal to stack chips like this?)

Anyway, I was the only deep stack at the table (about 450BB), with one player in seat 4 around 150BB and the rest 30BB-60BB, with the guy on my right closer to 100BB. The main factor in how a pot would go seemed to be whether I was involved in it. If I was involved, we'd typically play for stacks; otherwise, it would go much more passively.

So one time I bet something like KJ out of order, because the guy on my right was just sitting there with his hands on the table and I had assumed he'd folded. But his hand was completely covering his cards. After I bet, he immediately raised, and I was forced to call, then ended up folding later in the hand (everyone else folded pre-flop). So I became very suspicious of this guy. The next time I saw him covering his hand I asked him not to. He ignored me, so I told the dealer, and the dealer asked him not to, and he complied. So I thought that was it. Then a couple orbits later, exact same thing. I pick up JJ in position and he's just sitting there like he's folded, and I stupidly assumed he had complied with the dealer's orders so I bet, then he immediately raised, and again I called (everyone else folded). Flop was ATxr, I C-bet, he calls, turn is a blank and gets checked down, river is a blank, then he makes a small bet which I call. He shows KK.

So by that point I was certain the man was angling me, deliberately covering his hand when he had a strong holding, trying to induce me into betting, since I was one of two stacks that covered this guy, and directly to his left to boot, which made me his best chance of doubling up by this "cover your hand to induce an effective 3-bet call" bull****

I realize I'm partly at fault here for not confirming all his folds, but I'm still new at the live thing and occasionally miss a bit of the action, particularly in this case because most players act straightforwardly preflop and if they're just sitting there for several seconds with their hands in front of them and no chips you can typically assume they've folded.

What can I do about this crap? I told the dealer twice, but he'd just warn the guy and he'd go right back to doing it a few hands later. I was running good at the time so I didn't feel like making a big deal out of it, and also was about to leave anyway, but I figure he took me for at least $75 with this nonsense. What should I do in future such situations? Pay more attention obviously, but I'm going to slip up now and then. Ask the guy to lift his hands every time I consider betting? That's going to be hard, particularly since he'd pretend not to understand English when I asked him, but he clearly understood when the dealer did. Call the floor? What would they do? Just warn him again?

I ended up just leaving because the game had gotten ****ty and it was getting late, but in retrospect I wish I'd done something to make him stop hiding his hole cards from me. He was a tricky little bastard...

Talk to a floor manager away from the table when you take your next break. That's also my go-to solution for just about every chronic/pattern-of-behavior issue (as opposed to an acute/immediate/emergency situation) that comes up in a poker room.

If the floor is good, he'll keep an eye on it. Then the first time the guy does it he'll explain why he can't do that and let him know the next time he does it he'll be asked to leave for the day.

In situations like this, I'm never shy about calling someone out. I tend not to do it directly, but literally every hand I'm about to play, I'd look at him and ask if he has cards before I put any money in the pot (a call or raise). He might get upset, but it'll get the point across to any good dealer and eventually he'll probably get upset about you constantly asking him if he has cards. Either he'll ask why you keep asking him, at which point you can go off on him about how he's been covering his cards when he has a big hand, or you'll get your point across to the entire table. Either way, it will probably put an end to things.

That being said, it's part of live poker to follow the game as much as you can to know if it's your turn. I realize mistakes happen, but after the first time he did it, but there are ways to frustrate the guy who is trying to angle you like this

Every time he reraises you call the floor over. It is within their power to only give him the option to call or fold because he did not protect his action by hiding his cards and by the second time they will probably start doing that

If you call or raise out of turn (accidently or whatever), and then he raises....your bet or raise is not binding. You can still fold

depends on the room. your stack has to be organized enough that a person can reasonably make an estimate of how much you have.

Right but I think in this case the angler was covering his cards preflop and getting the victim to his left to raise. So in that case the angler says I didn't act yet" and he limps. Then the victim's raise stands because the preflop action didn't change.

Any real solution has to involve talking to the floor either in private or openly calling for floor.

So, in most cases, I consider myself pretty level headed and not one to cause a problem, but when I feel someone is cheating the game, I'm never afraid to openly call them out at the table. I think talking to the floor/dealer openly about the issue is a better plan here. Shaming the cheater so everyone at the table knows what he's doing often stops the cheater from what they're doing.

I've done it for guys adding chips to their stack (to build a bigger stack above the buy-in limits). I've done it to guys who are openly trying to get a look at their neighbors cards. These guys obviously know they're cheating. Calling them out on their BS is often the fastest way to make it stop, instead of hoping the floor can watch and catch them doing it again.

Maybe so. We will have to get clarification from OP. His OP says "after I bet he immediately raised and I was forced to call". That sounds different than "after I raised, he quickly limped in forcing my raise to stand and then after everyone else folded, he 3 bet me"

In most rooms you're only required to have your chips visible. There's no requirement to stack them in way that they're easily counted. Typically I can estimate close enough for any decision. If not I'll stop and ask V how many big chips he has and if he doesn't sort them or say then I'll stop and count them.

Yeah that makes no sense. If the guy hasn't acted and you raise OOT action is back on him and he can call (in which case your raise stands) or raise (in which case you generally can fold).

If this is a room that says OOT chips have to stay in the pot then that'll happen once. If he's been asked not to hide his cards the second time it happens I'm calling for the floor.

Even if he's limping which binds your raise and then re-raising when it gets back to him I'm calling the floor. It's pretty simple - "The player next to me is covering his cards in a way I so I can't see them and has been asked not to do this and yet continues to do so". A good floor will take away his ability to raise.

First follow the action. I generally watch every player act and know if they've acted or not - specially if I'm in late position where I'll be opening light or I have a hand I want to raise.

Second there's always the ask him every time until he/the dealer/the table get the idea.

Third if you're still caught appeal to the floor as above.

if you were sitting in seat 5, the player to your right is in seat 4.

Since he is right next to you, you should know he's in the hand by the time the flop is dealt out. It's not rocket science, even if he's totally hiding his cards.

I would suggest to stay more observant on who raises or calls preflop, such as the number of players in the hand and who they are.

If you make a bet out of turn and the person you skipped changes the action, in most rooms you would be allowed to take your bet back. I don't know if this is the rule down in FL.

Maybe Shai was facing the wrong way.

Agreed.

If they do nothing about it, then...

This.

Stop focusing on this guy as an angle shooter. Take responsibility for paying attention to who is betting, folding, calling, or raising. And note your position relative to the other players. At every street, you should verbalize to yourself something along the lines of, "There are four players still in the hand, the button was the preflop raiser, and I'm second to act postflop."

You should never be surprised to discover someone has cards. If you are, you are not paying sufficient attention to the game.

Yep, pay attention.

The times he did this to me it looked like he had folded, not limped. I couldn't see any chips in front of him to indicate a limp, and didn't see any cards either as he was covering them. The first time with KJ the dealer said I had to call since the guy to my right's "raise" was just under 2x my bet (I think I bet 15 and he bet around 25). I guess that's not technically a "raise" since it's less than 2x my bet but I didn't know what else to call it.

Is the dealer wrong here? Could I have folded? Could I have changed the bet amount? If not, is it different if the guy to my right had bet, say, 35 instead of 25?

They were stacked in one column in a random manner, combining white chips, gray chips, red chips, and green chips. When he left the table I was able to count them by leaning in, but it was extremely difficult to figure out how much he had while playing. To make things worse, his covering of his hand would partially obscure the chip stack. I politely asked him how many green chips he had but he ignored me. Later, a player to his right told me how many he had. I also asked him politely if he'd trade his green chips to me for red chips as I had like 140 red chips at that point but he just ignored me. He was intentionally making his stack as hard to read as possible.

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And yeah, the player to my right was seat 4 obviously. Sorry about that. Seat 6 was the medium stack and on my left.

The "yep, pay attention" comment is very helpful, thanks, especially since I already suggested I should obviously do that in the OP. Typically I am following all the things mentioned by agamblerthen, such as who bet, how much, who called, etc. I'm also typically watching the players to my left more when the cards are dealt since a lot of them telegraph their folds. By the time I look right, the guy may have already looked at his cards or not. He's just sitting there looking exactly the same as if he had folded, not making any motions towards his chips or anything, appearing disinterested but really hoping I bet out of turn. And I did. Twice. I got caught off guard. I'm still in my first 100 hours of live play and do get caught off guard sometimes, but it happens less and less the more I play, and I'll be watching out for this kind of thing in the future. Still adapting to live vs. online play. Maybe more slowly than most, but adapting. I'll get there.

Keep in mind that while this may be an angle ..... the vast majority of times it is unconscious behavior. Players get used to putting their hands in certain positions and they just naturally go there. That doesn't make it right, it doesn't mean you shouldn;t try to get it corrected. But you should also understand it doesn't mean the guy is actually trying to cheat you so kindler gentler approach may be more appropriate. And many times they don;t understand what the problem is. They can see the cards from their position so they must be visible to everyone is how they think. I had a pretty long argument with a dealer friend of mine who was outraged that a floor at a local casino told him he couldn;t keep is card in his "card cage grip". He insisted that the cards were visible. And I pointed out that no player stands to gain anything from making him not do the card cage thing so why would a player lie about not being able to see the cards, and why would a floor person take a stand on this of all issues if it wasn;t likely that his cards were hidden from view from a player? He just couldn;t understand this and insisted this was a conspiracy between the floor and a local regular.....

If he is only doing it when he has a strong hand ... do you really want him to stop? thats pretty good information to have.....

I don't understand what you are saying here. How could the dealer ever day you "have to call"?

I'm saying I bet 15 OOT, guy to my right bet 25, I said something like "Sorry, what are my options?" and am told I have to make it 25. It's very possible the dealer messed up. Also possible I misinterpreted him, though I don't think so.

Second time with JJ I didn't ask and just called as a) I thought that was my only option from previous KJ hand exchange, and b) I thought in this spot it was better than folding or 3-betting anyway.

Are you saying I should have been allowed to fold, call, or 3-bet?

@psandman

I've seen other players covering their hole cards unintentionally. Usually they're partially covering their hole cards. This guy was completely covering his hole cards, and waiting on me to raise OOT before betting himself. When I was UTG and folded he always bet quickly. He also ignored me when I asked him to not cover his hand, but he understood the dealer so I know he understood me. And his stack had the different chip denominations dispersed randomly, he wouldn't tell me how many green chips he had, and he wouldn't trade green chips. I am 99% certain he was angling me.

In general, I don't assume players covering their cards are doing it on purpose though. But in the future I am going to ask they not cover their cards even if it looks unintentional.

There's only 1 situation I can think of where you "have to call".

If villain put out $25, you put out $15 and people acted behind you. Essentially your $15 looked like a call and people acted on it so it's going to stand. Even then you'd usually get the option to leave the $15 and fold or call.

So in your case you raise to $15 out of turn. Guy on your right says "wait i didnt act". Dealer agrees and guy on your right raises to $25. In most rooms you now have every option - fold, call or raise.

It's possible this room has the rule that your $15 must stay in the pot if you choose to fold but you'd never have to call. If the dealer said that he's likely wrong. It's unlikely that you'd want to fold for $10 into a $50+ pot with a hand you wanted to raise but it should be allowed.

Could be that he's intentionally doing this to be annoying. Most places he's allowed to do it though. You generally only have a right to an exact count of what he bets - ie if he goes all in dealer will count it.

No matter how sloppily he arranges his chips you should be able to get a "close enough" estimate if he's not hiding chips. If he's hiding chips it's a whole different thing. You can likely ask the dealer to have the player put his big chips out front or on top but if he just has one stack they might not require this even.

That doesn't make any sense.

If hiding cards guy claimed he checked (and they believed him), he would be raising. It would be a minimum of $30, and you could call or fold.

If he claimed he hadn't acted (and they believed him), in most places you could take back your $15 and would still have your full options to call, fold, or raise. In a few places you would have to leave your $15 in the pot if you decided to fold. In that case there is a good chance you would want to just call the extra $10, but it would not be required.

I have never heard of any rule set where you would be forced to call the extra $10.

dealer probably thought you were asking about raising options, not thinking a player would bet out 15 but would want to fold to 25.

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Yeah, this is a possibility; she just meant you couldn't bet less than $25 - if you want to put money into the pot, you do have to put in at least $25.

Not sure why this isn't everyone's response.

I've missed peoples' cards many times in my live poker history - sometimes their fault, sometimes my fault, sometimes nobody's fault. But what I can say with absolute certainty is that it's never happened twice in a session. Because after the first time I check twice.

If you bet 15 before he acted at all (by betting 25) then you should be able to take back your 15 and have all options available to you. Something doesn't seem right.