Have recently taken on some short term backing for live games. Long term winner, hit decent downswing.

Have been on the stake for around a month. Have split profit twice, backer is up close to 70% roi on initial investment, though some profits have been reinvested into the stakeroll. Not that that is super relevant anyway though.

Currently a little less than 2 buyins in makeup - about 280bb.

Last night I was sending backer some hand histories from lower stakes game that I am own diming, talking about how I'm running bad in general, and a bad beat HH.

This morning he says "After this one (presumably after clearing makeup) I'm going to end the stake."
Didn't give a reason.

Do you think I owe him my time grinding out of makeup when he's already told me I'm getting dropped?

Are you sure that’s what he meant? If so, then no. It’s not even analogous to constructive dismissal. It’s more like: “You’re fired, so don’t expect another paycheck, but finish this project before you leave.”

The reason I’m comparing it to employment here and not something like investments is because any resistance by the backer will be in the form of a technical argument that he didn’t end the stake. However, he effectively did in the way that a retail job that cuts all your hours has effectively fired you. No reasonable arbitrator would see it as anything but.

Did your backer know of / approve of you "own diming"?

yes, you have to grind to clear the makeup or pay it at 50%

Yes

How do you figure? If I wanted to quit, sure. If he’s dropping me seems like I don’t owe him anything. I told him coming in you need to keep putting up money or you don’t have a claim to any makeup. We never discussed him dropping me while in makeup, but I can’t see how he expects me to grind out when he’s stated he will be ending the deal.

is the current make up counting the profits that were split ?? like since you started stake you are down xyz?

this is a toughie... i would prob tell them that i cant play to get you even n then be dropped. that's totally unfair to you. i think hes quit you essentially and is just kinda freerolling you .

if hes a friend id try to fix it. if backer is just a poker guy id prob tell him you cant play for free and feel vindicated he quit you.

if he drops you, you don't owe anything. if he's dropping you, you still have to keep playing a la your contract

Lots of staking threads lately. I guess I'm just always missing some piece(s) of the puzzle in my head. Since there is no 'standard' staking arrangement we need to know what the original arrangement consisted of.

"This one .." This one what? Session? Stakeroll?

I can't disagree with the employment parallel, but I'm thinking more of a 'lay off' notice than a 'work for free' spot. I'm assuming OP still has some sort of SR to play with, so can OP just choose to turn it back over and walk away or is OP expected to try and win enough to 'make up' and then walk away?

Is the Backer just stating that he's done making any further investments into the SR? If so, why wouldn't he just take back what's left rather than risk OP losing it and increasing the MU?

I'm assuming that (current SR) + (remaining past profit split) puts the Backer close to his initial investment. Which seems like a good parting spot. Did OP 'reinvest' some profit split as well? Probably not.

Do NASCAR drivers quit driving when they know they lost their sponsor/ride for the next season? No, they finish things out. Since we don't know your agreement ... and you don't really seem to know what your Backer means ... it's tough to come to a viable solution for your spot.

Personally I would always try to finish out my commitment. You're not working for free, you presumable kept your profit split. You are 'ruining' your hourly rate of the agreement, but it's more like you've been paid up front and need to finish the job IMO.

I'm always thinking future as well. This arrangement may 'need/want' to come back up in the future. I'm not really into burning bridges. Find out exactly what the Backer means by 'This one ...' and go from there. GL

PS .. These arrangements really can't be that hard ... can they?

Only if the contract specifically states that.

Standard procedure is that if the backer decides to end the stake, makeup is gone.

You have to pay exactly zero unless there is a legally enforceable contract that states otherwise. That’s pretty clear and simple.

I cannot believe that guys still keep getting suckered into these "Stake with make-up" deals. Once you fall into makeup (as most stakee's inevitably seem to do at some point,) these arrangements become little more than indentured servitude, which is actually illegal around then world. Those "I was staked and it worked out great for me etc etc blah blah blah," testimonials the stakers always trot out are worth no more than the ones you see on those ads for male enhancement in the back pages of some magazines. The sad truth is that taking a pill that you bought from an ad in the back of a tabloid will not increase your girth, no matter what "Bob from Deerborn Iowa" said.

This is correct. OP, what does your written agreement look like? It would be helpful if you were to c&p it here.

IF there's a written agreement. An 'A proper written staking agreement' thread would be a good idea for those w/ experience to contribute to.

Going to assume there is no written nor verbal agreement about how the stake ends.

I'd ask he what he meant. It sounds like that once you get back to even, he'd like to end things. This would imply that he would be willing to fund you further until you got to even. He could interpret this as the stake is still on. As you said, this was a short term arrangement so it shouldn't be a shock that the two of you weren't going to ride into the sunset together.

Deciding to not pay back the make up could burn a bridge with him. Maybe that doesn't matter. If it does, you might want to compromise on this. If he has good relations with other stakors, it might hurt you in the future with others.

It should go without saying that if you are holding any cash of his, you need to return it if you plan to end the stake.

If he drops you, you don't owe.. but it's not clear what he meant.

As a side note: texting your backer about how bad you run is not recommended.

I mean he's giving you a heads up not ending the stake which I see as a nice gesture that he doesn't have to do. I mean if he was an ******* and just waited for you to get even and end the stake wouldn't it be the same thing as you continuing to play? It sucks. I'd try to talk to him and see if you can continue things as you seem to really want to but it'd be really scummy IMO to just walk away and not pay anything. Make other arrangements lined up for when you get even. If you are not continuing in poker and an opportunity is available tell him that and it would be fine to walk away and not play poker ever again or play for him when you wish to play until he doesn't want to stake anymore.

If I was a staker and fired my horse, I would never want him to try and pay back the make-up. I would just want the stake roll back, otherwise he could spite dump the roll to his friends.

That’s the main issue with trying to make someone keep playing out of makeup without a legally binding contract. The player can just keep losing until the backer decides to stop handing over money. “I know that spot looks a little bit strange, but I thought his 5bet AI was light and I felt priced in to call off with 75o!”.

Every professionally run staking/backing/staple/... business spends a decent amount of money to have their contracts as bulletproof as possible. That includes localized versions for different jurisdictions.

But if there’s no written contract and the verbal agreement doesn’t address the situation specifically, both parties can end the agreement whenever they want and makeup is gone. But venice10 is right, doing that might burn a bridge with the backer and potentially many other people, depending on the size of his network.

How can you possibly assert this? You’re just making this up.






Original Poster, it depends on what your deal with the staker is. Given that this thread exists, my guess is that you did not have an explicit agreement with your staker on what happens in this situation. But maybe what your deal was would help an interpretation of what should happen in this situation.

Given that it seems profits get split at arbitrary timelines and it having happened twice and your staker being up a bunch from those two times, and your staker calling it quits now while slightly down not counting the previous profit splits, then, in the absence of a deal to the contrary, I would consider the stake over and give the staker back the remaining stake money I have and not a penny more. If the relationship is important, maybe you would choose differently.


The agreement seems sloppy and not well thought out, as many of these agreements are. All of this stuff should be dealt with and agreements made on up front. And, particularly if the two of you are not long time friends and this is not a tiny amount of money for micro stakes, it should be in a formal writing also, IMO.

Because that is the standard making deal. Horses can't quit in makeup, or they have to pay it back at 50%. Otherwise horses would be too incentivized to drop a stake any time they accumulated a lot of makeup.

Horse is not dropping. Stake is dropping. Completely stakes choice horse don't owe.

Yes, and once the backer ends the stake then the horse is free and clear. Until that time he has to keep playing on the stake, otherwise he is leaving the ongoing stake while in makeup, in which case he owes 50% of makeup.

The backer saying he will, in the future, end the stake, does not end the stake. The backer or the horse were always going to end the stake in the future at some point. Staking deals aren't meant to last until the rest of eternity.

Maybe it is standard; I don’t know. But it doesn’t really matter what is standard. It matters what they agreed to.

It seems like so many of these staking deals are not put in writing, are poorly thought out (don’t address various scenarios that are fairly likely to occur) and are poorly structured. That is going to lead to issues and disputes more often than there needs to be.

Stake took the risk. He can't say you are mine until you are even or the money is gone. If horse returns the current stake he is clear. What keeps him from doing this anytime he is behind is not the forced payback. It is not wanting to form a reputation of choosing to do so.

With your rules I will take your 10k, claim I lost it or even dump it on my partner. We pay you back half, do it again with you or another backer and now have a full stake.

You tell me you will no longer stake me once I work my ass off to catch up and you will immediately get the current stake remaining bac and not one cent more. That is all you are owed. Your capital was at risk in exchange for my time and skill. I take back my skill and remaining time. You take back your remaining capital.

Sure he can. A backer can end a stake at any time. The fact that he informs OP of his plans, giving OP additional information and ability to plan ahead should hardly be held against him.

So you think horses can quit in makeup? Wouldn't this incentivize them to drop any backer when they are in makeup, especially deep in make up? Screwing over people who have been helping them by giving them a chance?


That was always a risk at any point of the stake.