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Winning Hand - Tabled - Mucked by Dealer Winning Hand - Tabled - Mucked by Dealer

05-08-2017 , 11:05 AM
Heads up, at showdown. Four diamonds on the board. First player tables 96 for a diamond flush. Second player sheepishly shows his pocket queens in the air. Assuming he has lost, he says "nice hand" and tables his queens face up (QQ). Dealer immediately mucks the queens and I speak up to say the second player is the winner with a queen high diamond flush. Dealer is able to easily retrieve the hand and awards the pot to the correct winner.

This is the right move correct? I feel that no matter what the second player interprets his hand to be, he tabled his hand and it becomes a purely objective reading of the cards and awarding the pot (cards speak). I feel this was a dealer mistake that should be corrected every time if possible.

If he had verbally declared fold but tabled his hand, would it be any different? Obviously if he flashed his cards but mucked, OPTAH should still be in play.

The losing player gave me a death stare for awhile, but the more I thought about it the more I felt correct. "Always turn your cards up!" I said.
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05-08-2017 , 11:08 AM
You did exactly right, well done.
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05-08-2017 , 11:10 AM
He can't verbally declare fold at showdown. He has the options of showing and mucking.

You did the right thing. 'Cards speak' as soon as a hand is tabled.
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05-08-2017 , 11:37 AM
text book situation. Except for the dealer mucking a tabled hand.
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05-08-2017 , 12:25 PM
YES .. always speak up in this spot. This is exactly where players not in the hand need to speak up.

It is correctable until the next hand starts, so even if the hands and board get mucked there is still a chance to get it right depending on what the room rules are for the start of the next hand and 'pushed pot' rules and so forth.

It would probably take a Floor ruling if it got that far, but the door is still open.

Don't worry about the other player .. They are just as likely to speak up as anyone in that spot. GL
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05-08-2017 , 12:46 PM
You did right.
If someone ever helps you in the same way, say 'thanks', maybe by her a drink.
If someone ever helps your Opponent in the same way, say 'thanks'. You can pass on buying him a drink.
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05-08-2017 , 01:13 PM
Well played, OP.
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05-08-2017 , 03:36 PM
Hand tabled at shielwdiwn is live. All players have a responsibility to the integrity of the game. Player who wanted to drag without the best hand is dissappointed, but if he honestly believes that he should have won, he is a bit questionable in character
Winning Hand - Tabled - Mucked by Dealer Quote
05-08-2017 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
If someone ever helps your Opponent in the same way, say 'thanks' and tell the opponent to buy him a drink.
FTFY

If the dealer is quick enough he's saying nothing while the cards are held up in the air and "Queen high flush" as soon as they land on their backs on the felt.
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05-09-2017 , 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
He can't verbally declare fold at showdown. He has the options of showing and mucking.
This is not true. A player can verbally fold right up until his cards hit the felt, face up, whether he's already put his chips in on the river or not.

Player A: [Tables J high and a missed straight]
Player B: Ha! I fold! [Then, immediately tables a flush]
Me (If I'm the dealer): [Muck B's hand & award pot to A]
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05-09-2017 , 08:28 AM
Dead hands ... RRoP ... 1) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.

At a true showdown you aren't facing a bet or raise. The hand is not technically dead due to an announced fold.

Showdown ... RRoP ...
2) Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.

Although I think there is certainly some wiggle room here 'per room' a player can say whatever they want at showdown and as long as they table their cards they have a right to the pot no matter what the angst they may cause otherwise.

I've stated before, there is a room (Belagio or Venitian, maybe Commerce?) that has a 'house' rule that if you say "You're good" then your hand actually is dead and the other player can take in the pot without showing their cards. They had issues with players wanting to see hole cards from players that had called River bets and then the bettor flipping over a winner.

Certainly a fine line ... But also certainly "Not True" doesn't apply in whole either. I think most floors are awarding the pot with a warning to the 'folding' player. GL
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05-09-2017 , 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112
This is not true. A player can verbally fold right up until his cards hit the felt, face up, whether he's already put his chips in on the river or not.

Player A: [Tables J high and a missed straight]
Player B: Ha! I fold! [Then, immediately tables a flush]
Me (If I'm the dealer): [Muck B's hand & award pot to A]
Unless your room has wonky rules about conceding at showdown, this is wrong.

The argument about folding vs. mucking vs. muck piile isn't very illuminating and gets people into trouble sometimes, but the reality is that in most rooms, once you reach showdown, any hand that gets tabled in any way is live and can vie for the pot.
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05-09-2017 , 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolt2112
This is not true. A player can verbally fold right up until his cards hit the felt, face up, whether he's already put his chips in on the river or not.

Player A: [Tables J high and a missed straight]
Player B: Ha! I fold! [Then, immediately tables a flush]
Me (If I'm the dealer): [Muck B's hand & award pot to A]
If you do that, your room has some let's call it 'non-standard' rules.

Folding is something a player can do when action is on him. After the last round of betting on the river, there is no more action. So player A can verbally concede the hand and that might or might not be binding, but he cannot raise, call, check or fold. At showdown he can decide between tabling or conceding his hand.
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05-09-2017 , 05:30 PM
Player A: [Tables J high and a missed straight]
Player B: Ha! I raise.

What do you do then bolt? Raise is just as invalid as fold in this spot.
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05-09-2017 , 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locked
Assuming he has lost, he says "nice hand" and tables his queens face up
I usually catch the right winner here.

But when a player thinks he is showing a loser it's easy to miss the one card straight or flush.
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