Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-25-2017, 07:23 PM   #1
kobeizdabest
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 130
Fast Bets when Checked to IP

I have noticed that some players will tend to bet almost instantly, usually on the flop after a declined cbet, or on the turn after a cbet and a call and then the PFR checks to them. I know that fast calls usually indicate medium strength or draws, essentially a hand that doesn't have to think about anything as it is an obvious call. However, not sure what a fast bet means. Any insights? Also, different observations when it happens in a multiway pot?

Thanks
kobeizdabest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2017, 06:31 PM   #2
michelle227
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 990
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Are you asking about online or live?
michelle227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2017, 05:55 AM   #3
kobeizdabest
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 130
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Was referring to live, but will take any insights on either
kobeizdabest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2017, 04:37 PM   #4
michelle227
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 990
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Some people actually know what they are going to do and don't waste time when the action is on them. Unless the individual you are asking about ONLY does this occasionally, then you are likely up against someone that likes games that move at a good pace.
michelle227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2017, 05:32 PM   #5
refinedsugar
grinder
 
refinedsugar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 532
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Speaking in terms of live; this is one of those on-the-surface inconclusive tells that can go both ways. I feel its rather weak in nature, but it varies from person to person. Quality of the player naturally plays a part in this. Some people act quickly all the time, some mix it up, balance etc. Generally speaking, a person with a monster or nutted hand doesn't wanna show too much strength and scare you off. So to act like that is very counterproductive.

Per your example, you might be up against opponents who are skilled and aware enough to try and take control of the hand (possible steal) after what they perceive to be weakness. Of course, they might also have had the best hand on the flop or improved on the turn as well.
refinedsugar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2017, 03:43 AM   #6
spoggos
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greece
Posts: 30
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

I'm not some psychology expert, my opinion comes from playing online mostly btw. From what I've noticed, when people have monster hands or near-nutted hands, they don't act quickly, usually at least. That's because they don't want to scare you usually or perhaps it's because they want you to think that they're thinking about bluffing and/or they are hesitating/scared to bluff, when in reality they have a complete monster that's desperate for value. When you get bet to quickly across three streets, I feel that you're much more likely to be against a bluff - the reasoning is that even a strong value hand on the flop will actually have to consider how the turn and the river have changed both players ranges - which in terms means that even if V had a strong value hand, he will still take a moment to consider how the turn and the river have changed the board texture, what sizing should he use? Should he bet even, or check perhaps to try to induce a river bluff that we intend to call? I hope you get my point - also, the opposite can be true as well - that when we actually have a weak hand - either complete air, or a draw that didn't complete on either the turn or the river, we can best faster - that is because we do not really have too much to think about - we know our hand will never win at showdown since we were bluffing and have reached the river with air - so our decision can be "faster" in a sense compared to betting for value because we know we can't win the pot in any other way. I don't have any proof for any of my statements, just what I've noticed from playing couple thousand games online. Also, I think that the players prone to taking these actions are usually recreationals - I think many regs will usually try to take approximately the same amount of time for their decision whether they're bluffing or value betting, simply because they don't want to give away "timing tells" to observant opponents. Hope this help, cheers.
spoggos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2017, 04:25 PM   #7
leavesofliberty
self-banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: probably busto
Posts: 6,146
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Some will use reverse psychology here, so this is not a good tell to try to read cold, btw.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2017, 02:22 PM   #8
sneyldat
newbie
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 22
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

C-bets are just so standard now in today's games that I don't think there is much information to be picked up
sneyldat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2017, 01:45 PM   #9
WharfRat1976
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 199
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

I always fast bet nuts. I never fast bet draws and air.

Calling or folding to fast bets is trickier. Yes, it usually is weak and drawy to me depending on the villian.

As the bettor, doing a 10 or 15 second pause on all actions can deflect this read.
WharfRat1976 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 01:14 AM   #10
Shai Hulud
adept
 
Shai Hulud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,008
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Quote:
Originally Posted by WharfRat1976 View Post
I always fast bet nuts. I never fast bet draws and air.

Calling or folding to fast bets is trickier. Yes, it usually is weak and drawy to me depending on the villian.

As the bettor, doing a 10 or 15 second pause on all actions can deflect this read.
Won't pausing 10 to 15 seconds on all actions piss off the table?
Shai Hulud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 09:12 AM   #11
Yeodan
adept
 
Yeodan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Belgium
Posts: 979
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
Won't pausing 10 to 15 seconds on all actions piss off the table?
Yup.
There's a few people at my club who do this, it's pretty annoying.

But I guess if you do it consistently and only when you're going to play (call/bet/raise) it's fine if it's not 15 seconds every single time.

5 seconds should be plenty in most cases?
Yeodan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 09:45 AM   #12
Shai Hulud
adept
 
Shai Hulud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,008
Re: Fast Bets when Checked to IP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeodan View Post
Yup.
There's a few people at my club who do this, it's pretty annoying.

But I guess if you do it consistently and only when you're going to play (call/bet/raise) it's fine if it's not 15 seconds every single time.

5 seconds should be plenty in most cases?
Five seconds isn't enough because sometimes we might actually need a while to think of hand combinations, perform math calculations, etc. I'm not sure 15 seconds would even be enough. I mean it might deflect 90% of timing tells but some of the most important decisions are also those that take a long time to reach. If we take 15 seconds 90% of the time and 15-60 seconds 8% of the time and 60-180 seconds 2% of the time, then it would be fairly easy to correlate what's meant by the times we act extra slow. And a disproportionate number of the 8% 15-60 second actions take place on later streets during larger pots so they're more significant. The 2% 60-180 second actions would take place almost exclusively in huge pots on the river, making their tells much more significant than the frequency would suggest.

Seems like for bet timing tells, in order to deflect them perfectly you need to spend the max time you would ever take on a given street for every action you take on that street. So if I take max 15 seconds on the flop, I must always take 15 seconds. If I take max 60 seconds on the turn, I must always take 60 seconds. If I take max 180 seconds on the river, I must always take 180 seconds.

Some high stakes pros actually play like this (or take even longer). In low stakes games it's a recipe for being hated. I'm just going to take 3 - 5 seconds most of the time and hope nobody notices why for when I sometimes take 15 or more.
Shai Hulud is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online