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Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

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Old 08-04-2018, 07:12 AM   #1
vanvliet
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Checking blind - a tell

1-2 game

I have ATo in CO
I raise to 10 after 3 limpers, the BB and two EP players call

Board runs out

AdKd3 6 Kh

On flop they check I bet 15 at ~40 pot, two players call
On turn they check I bet 35 at 85 pot only good older player calls
On river he has checked blind (he was the BB) I just check and show down, he has A3.

I thought afterwards that I should have bet thin for value at end as his check most likely is Ace rag.

He was obviously not drawing when he checked blind

He likely doesn’t call turn with KX anyway

He likely thinks he is way ahead/way behind.

I got to thinking that checking blind probably wants a cheap show down and not to be put to the test with a difficult decision.

I should have bet about 50

Thoughts?
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Old 08-04-2018, 09:38 AM   #2
Shai Hulud
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanvliet View Post
1-2 game

I have ATo in CO
I raise to 10 after 3 limpers, the BB and two EP players call

Board runs out

AdKd3 6 Kh

On flop they check I bet 15 at ~40 pot, two players call
On turn they check I bet 35 at 85 pot only good older player calls
On river he has checked blind (he was the BB) I just check and show down, he has A3.

I thought afterwards that I should have bet thin for value at end as his check most likely is Ace rag.

He was obviously not drawing when he checked blind

He likely doesn’t call turn with KX anyway

He likely thinks he is way ahead/way behind.

I got to thinking that checking blind probably wants a cheap show down and not to be put to the test with a difficult decision.

I should have bet about 50

Thoughts?
Preflop bet way too small, flop bet too small, turn bet too small, but not a strat forum so w/e.

Yeah check dark is almost always a weak made hand. Occasionally it could be some nit with AK afraid of the flush but in general I think he's capped at AX here, especially if he's any good as not raising AK over your small flop and turn bets on a board with two diamonds and a Broadway draw is really bad.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:28 PM   #3
antialias
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

Quote:
I got to thinking that checking blind probably wants a cheap show down and not to be put to the test with a difficult decision.
I would take into consideration what you think his impression of you is.

If he thinks you will always bluff the river or bet hands you should better check down or would fold to a bet (like third pair or so) then he may well check blind with a made hand knowing that he will get at least one bet - and maybe even a crying call on his raise - out of you.
I have a player like that at my home game whom I will blind-check to on the river..unfortunately we only play for the pizza bill (playing for money is illegal where I live), but he's a constant source of joy...erm..chips
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:47 PM   #4
Shai Hulud
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

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Originally Posted by antialias View Post
I would take into consideration what you think his impression of you is.

If he thinks you will always bluff the river or bet hands you should better check down or would fold to a bet (like third pair or so) then he may well check blind with a made hand knowing that he will get at least one bet - and maybe even a crying call on his raise - out of you.
I have a player like that at my home game whom I will blind-check to on the river..unfortunately we only play for the pizza bill (playing for money is illegal where I live), but he's a constant source of joy...erm..chips
Yeah people don't do this in real games so much. Fish might get all trappy for the thrill of it but it's idiotic and we were told this guy is somewhat good so he's never checking here to get a bluff. There aren't even any hands that can bluff unless we are just barreling air. And even if we might do that people don't triple barrel often enough to warrant a check here hoping for a bluff.

Where do you live you can't play for money in a home game? Sounds kind of extreme.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:53 PM   #5
antialias
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

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Where do you live you can't play for money in a home game?
Germany (have to head over to Leon Tsoukernik's casino in the Czech republic to play)

There's a few licensed casinos in germany where you can play but they're rather extreme on the rake (and the dress code: suit and tie excluisvely. I'm pretty sure you're not gonna find a game under 10k buy-in these places, either. Since I play just for the futz of it that's way more than I'm willing to risk on any given night.)
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:24 PM   #6
antialias
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

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Fish might get all trappy for the thrill of it but it's idiotic and we were told this guy is somewhat good so he's never checking here to get a bluff.
I dunno.
If he has a monster (like AK or 66 or 33) would he really bet into someone who has bet three times already? What are - from his point of view - the possibilities that hero holds?
a) Ax
b) air (Which I would almost rule out with hero's small bet sizings)
c) Kx

- Air is going to fold to a bet - so no value gained by leading out. But an induced bluff might net some additional chips.
- An ace might even fold to a bet - but might triple barrel on perceived weakness...and might even call a raise.
- Kx is going to bet anyways and will probably not even fold to a raise.

So in this scenario a check in the dark might be OK(?)


In any case I find the 'check in the dark' move stupid. Depending on board texture that develops you're taking away your own options to create/exploit potential spots.

Last edited by antialias; 08-06-2018 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:56 PM   #7
Shai Hulud
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

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Originally Posted by antialias View Post
I dunno.
If he has a monster (like AK or 66 or 33) would he really bet into someone who has bet three times already? What are - from his point of view - the possibilities that hero holds?
a) Ax
b) air (Which I would almost rule out with hero's small bet sizings)
c) Kx

- Air is going to fold to a bet - so no value gained by leading out. But an induced bluff might net some additional chips.
- An ace might even fold to a bet - but might triple barrel on perceived weakness...and might even call a raise.
- Kx is going to bet anyways and will probably not even fold to a raise.

So in this scenario a check in the dark might be OK(?)


In any case I find the 'check in the dark' move stupid. Depending on board texture that develops you're taking away your own options to create/exploit potential spots.
This isn't a strat forum so hopefully this doesn't get deleted, but...

A x dark is okay with AX if it works as intended and prevents villain from having to call a bet. But x dark with a monster here is super bad unless you know your opponent is an aggrotard who will bet whenever you x.

Board is AK36K. So suppose we (villain) have 33. Plausible. The only hands likely to bet if we x dark are better boats, quads, and KX. Maybe AX. Then we raise. Now we are only getting called by better boats and maybe KX. OTOH if we the villain bet out with 33 we will get called by AX KX, possibly even hands like QQ JJ and get raised by better boats.

Checking just loses value because hero's range that 33 beats has a lot more hands that will call a bet than will bet themselves (specifically much more AX than KX).

And the difference between checking and checking dark is checking dark is usually done with weakish hands. Most hands at least want to see the river card before deciding. But with AX here on AK36K the river card really doesn't matter unless it's an A or K. Even then hero often has an A and it chops. Villain thinks he might be chopping with another AX but doesn't want to pay to find out, and some people seem to think checking dark looks more intimidating than waiting and checking when it's really like 90% not a strong hand.

So...in Germany, in a private home game among friends with no rake, it's still illegal to play for money? But you can play on Party Poker and go to casinos? I wonder if Party Poker is still soft or if it's a regfest like the other sites now.
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:20 PM   #8
antialias
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

Quote:
Board is AK36K. So suppose we (villain) have 33. Plausible. The only hands likely to bet if we x dark are better boats, quads, and KX. Maybe AX. Then we raise. Now we are only getting called by better boats and maybe KX. OTOH if we the villain bet out with 33 we will get called by AX KX, possibly even hands like QQ JJ and get raised by better boats.
That seems plausible (though I think QQ or JJ would have likely 3bet pre and unlikely bet flop small against 2 opponents on a scary board that hits lots of likely holdings...and even less likely bet turn with someone calling the flop).
But I think I see your point. If we (villain) bet river and someone reraises us big we might even get away from the hand. Though personally I probably would lose my stack to a better boat/quads.

Quote:
Checking just loses value because hero's range that 33 beats has a lot more hands that will call a bet than will bet themselves (specifically much more AX than KX).
I think Kx would bet..Ax is borderline (the OP was definitely thinking about it!)
The hands that bet and the hands that will call our bet are basically the same. And since we can eliminate bluff hands from hero's range inducing seems an outside chance.
Quote:
So...in Germany, in a private home game among friends with no rake, it's still illegal to play for money?
Yeah. Obviously you can do it as long as you tell no one...but since the group who occasionally rotate through the pizza-game is rather largish it's not worth the risk. It's just for laughs (and free pizza, of course). I think you can play if the prize has no relation to the buy-in (like a charity event or somesuch)

I think online play is sort of a gray area but I don't like playing online. I like the social aspect and trying to read people. Just clicking buttons is not fun to me.
Casinos in germany have a license but as noted there are only a few and these are high-class (not Vegas style). It's not too bad. The Czech border is like a 90 minute drive away (and the casino is right by the border...Leon knows what he's doing ).

Last edited by antialias; 08-06-2018 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 08-07-2018, 04:22 AM   #9
Shai Hulud
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

Quote:
Originally Posted by antialias View Post
That seems plausible (though I think QQ or JJ would have likely 3bet pre and unlikely bet flop small against 2 opponents on a scary board that hits lots of likely holdings...and even less likely bet turn with someone calling the flop).
But I think I see your point. If we (villain) bet river and someone reraises us big we might even get away from the hand. Though personally I probably would lose my stack to a better boat/quads.
Hero is the PFR and his range is uncapped. Why can't he have QQ or JJ?? Some people get pretty sticky on boards like this. My point is not that we (villain) are super likely to get called by a hand like QQ but we have some chance, compared to close to zero chance QQ bets out when we check. The important distinction is what hero does with a hand like AT. Villain will get called pretty often by AT but AT is usually checking back if villain checks. In this case if villain is aware hero knows tells I suppose he could check dark with a hand like 33 to look weak (a reverse tell) and induce a bet, but even so this is risky and isn't super useful as hero won't call when we x/r the river.


I think Kx would bet..Ax is borderline (the OP was definitely thinking about it!)
The hands that bet and the hands that will call our bet are basically the same.[/QUOTE]

But they aren't the same. Most players call lighter than they bet when in position, particularly on a board like this where it's hard to have bluffs (QJs maybe?) and those few bluffs have little fold equity after being called twice. A hand like AX has decent showdown value and isn't likely to get many worse hands to call so why would hero bet AX instead of checking back and taking the showdown value? Only purpose I can see would be if we think we can push villain off a chop and are quite convinced we would indeed be chopping (otherwise we could value own ourselves vs trips+ or even a hand like AJ).
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:04 AM   #10
antialias
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

Quote:
A hand like AX has decent showdown value and isn't likely to get many worse hands to call so why would hero bet AX instead of checking back
I agree. Ax on this board is a check (as hero) - definitely not a bet. But as can be seen by the OP there are those who are convinced that betting would be better.

For me the final answer what to do (as villain) really boils down to villain's perception of hero.
OP states villain is a good player. But since you disagree with a value bet of AT (by hero) then maybe hero is not a good player.
If villain is really a good player he may well have picked up on the fact that hero is not good and play accordingly.
The only hands hero gets value from (that I can see being played this way by villain) are A2s-A5s...maybe so far as to limit it specifically to Ad2d-Ad5d (which would have definitely never checked dark). The hands that beat hero are all trips, boats, quads and all remaining combinations of AJ and AQ.

Lets not forget that when villain checked dark he held two pair and the 3s were not yet overcoated. So on a (most likely) non-paired board runout he was (at least to my mind) in value-bet territory. If he aimed for getting value then the check in the dark must have been made with the intention to induce a bluff/bet by Ax or QQ- , right?

Quote:
Hero is the PFR and his range is uncapped. Why can't he have QQ or JJ??
Continuation betting on a board with two overcards and two people left in the pot who have aces and kings in their range doesn't seem like a massively +EV move to me in this spot ( but as I learned in another thread I'm playing quite a bit too nitty, so I'm open to entertaining that it may be OK to do so).
Who am I getting to fold? Only weaker pairs and middling/low connectors/gappers (against whom I am ahead with QQ/JJ and whom I don't want to fold). Anyone with an ace or king will continue and then I've just put money in the pot as an underdog. Same on the turn. I don't see a bet as QQ/JJ sensible in these spots (particularly not these tiny bets)

Last edited by antialias; 08-07-2018 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:31 AM   #11
GermanGambler
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

I do this sometimes to represent a weak hand.

Also there are lots of good places to play poker in germany, but the rake is high. And nobody cares about your homegame if it stays small.
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Old 08-08-2018, 01:39 PM   #12
answer20
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Re: Checking blind - a tell

I've found a dark check is typically done when they 'know' they aren't going to bet anyway (for various reasons) ... and usually will call 'any' bet as well.

One Player I know will 'always' dark check the Flop and Turn when in the Blinds. He thinks it gains him position for the betting of that street. Which is sort of true .. if someone else bets thus giving him an option.

I don't know that it's much of a tell other than they don't want you to see them checking the particular card as much as they weren't going to bet anyway. GL
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