Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Poker Tells/Behavior, hosted by: Zachary Elwood Discussions about poker tells, behavior, and psychology, with a focus on live poker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-20-2017, 12:52 PM   #51
AceofLaid
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 129
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

If you play poker every day there is 0 chance you don't have some form of addiction. Let's be real with ourselves here. That's like saying you shoot dope every day but because you make money hustling you dont have an addiction. It's absolutely ignorant

Edit: close to 0 chance. Something doesn't have to be a "problem" for it to be an addiciton

Also what werbear said. Negative word association makes people live in denile

Last edited by AceofLaid; 09-20-2017 at 12:58 PM.
AceofLaid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2017, 06:25 AM   #52
Poker Clif
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,612
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AceofLaid View Post
If you play poker every day there is 0 chance you don't have some form of addiction. Let's be real with ourselves here. That's like saying you shoot dope every day but because you make money hustling you dont have an addiction. It's absolutely ignorant

Edit: close to 0 chance. Something doesn't have to be a "problem" for it to be an addiciton

Also what werbear said. Negative word association makes people live in denile
It seems that you can't tell the difference between addiction and working hard. If someone you knew was working 60-70 hours a week to get a new business off the ground, would you call him an addict?. For some reason, if your job is playing cards, working the same number of hours is an addiction. I guess the world class bridge players out there better get some counseling.

I once had a job as a men's supervisor in a rescue mission. I had been between jobs before that, and money for our family was tight. It turns out that the mission had a very small staff, so if even one person was missing there were hours to be covered and I scooped up all of the voluntary overtime that I could get.

I worked a couple 60 hour weeks at the mission. I had some weeks where i covered so many shifts that I wound up working first, second and third shift all in the same week. Was I addicted to that job? I don't remember any withdrawal symptoms when I had a day or two off.

At another point in my life I was going to college, I was in an elite National Guard unit that met once a week and I had a full-time job. Hard work, not an addiction.

When I decided to make poker my job, I approached it with the same work ethic. I study at least 10 hours every week, I play online tournaments for at least 30 hours, and I add to that whatever administrative hours that I need to put in. And yes, sometimes I work all seven days in a week.

If you think about it, there are a lot of people that work long or strange hours. Why should poker be any different?

Last edited by Poker Clif; 09-21-2017 at 06:26 AM. Reason: fixed word spacing
Poker Clif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2017, 07:00 AM   #53
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,449
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

The psychiatric definition of addiction includes:
Quote:
Addiction is characterized by:
  1. Inability to consistently Abstain;
  2. Impairment in Behavioral control;
  3. Craving; or increased “hunger” for drugs or rewarding experiences;
  4. Diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships; and
  5. A dysfunctional Emotional response.
There is a big difference between this and the secondary definition of addicted:
Quote:
enthusiastically devoted to a particular thing or activity.
Both winning and losing poker players could fit one or the other definition. The amount of time spent at the activity, nor the amount of money won or lost, is not determinant of which definition applies. You are not an "addict" in the first sense just because you love an activity and are enthusiastically devoted to it. On the other hand, imo it is unlikely that someone suffering from the affliction described in the first sense will be a winning player (but not impossible).
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 12:22 AM   #54
Poker Clif
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,612
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
The psychiatric definition of addiction includes:


There is a big difference between this and the secondary definition of addicted:


Both winning and losing poker players could fit one or the other definition. The amount of time spent at the activity, nor the amount of money won or lost, is not determinant of which definition applies. You are not an "addict" in the first sense just because you love an activity and are enthusiastically devoted to it. On the other hand, imo it is unlikely that someone suffering from the affliction described in the first sense will be a winning player (but not impossible).
I agree with everything that you wrote, but there is a option that hasn't been considered. Someone could be addicted in the sense that they lost control, or they could love what they do. The third option is that they aren't addicted and they don't like their job--but it's more money than they could make doing anything else.
Poker Clif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 12:35 AM   #55
MofoAgro
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MofoAgro Land
Posts: 168
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Clif View Post
It seems that you can't tell the difference between addiction and working hard. If someone you knew was working 60-70 hours a week to get a new business off the ground, would you call him an addict?. For some reason, if your job is playing cards, working the same number of hours is an addiction. I guess the world class bridge players out there better get some counseling.

I once had a job as a men's supervisor in a rescue mission. I had been between jobs before that, and money for our family was tight. It turns out that the mission had a very small staff, so if even one person was missing there were hours to be covered and I scooped up all of the voluntary overtime that I could get.

I worked a couple 60 hour weeks at the mission. I had some weeks where i covered so many shifts that I wound up working first, second and third shift all in the same week. Was I addicted to that job? I don't remember any withdrawal symptoms when I had a day or two off.

At another point in my life I was going to college, I was in an elite National Guard unit that met once a week and I had a full-time job. Hard work, not an addiction.

When I decided to make poker my job, I approached it with the same work ethic. I study at least 10 hours every week, I play online tournaments for at least 30 hours, and I add to that whatever administrative hours that I need to put in. And yes, sometimes I work all seven days in a week.

If you think about it, there are a lot of people that work long or strange hours. Why should poker be any different?
Because you generally would not lose your house, your soul, your family, your dignity, your self respect or even your life by working a normal job.

Great analogy though. SMFH
MofoAgro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 12:37 AM   #56
AceofLaid
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 129
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Clif View Post
It seems that you can't tell the difference between addiction and working hard. If someone you knew was working 60-70 hours a week to get a new business off the ground, would you call him an addict?. For some reason, if your job is playing cards, working the same number of hours is an addiction. I guess the world class bridge players out there better get some counseling.

I once had a job as a men's supervisor in a rescue mission. I had been between jobs before that, and money for our family was tight. It turns out that the mission had a very small staff, so if even one person was missing there were hours to be covered and I scooped up all of the voluntary overtime that I could get.

I worked a couple 60 hour weeks at the mission. I had some weeks where i covered so many shifts that I wound up working first, second and third shift all in the same week. Was I addicted to that job? I don't remember any withdrawal symptoms when I had a day or two off.

At another point in my life I was going to college, I was in an elite National Guard unit that met once a week and I had a full-time job. Hard work, not an addiction.

When I decided to make poker my job, I approached it with the same work ethic. I study at least 10 hours every week, I play online tournaments for at least 30 hours, and I add to that whatever administrative hours that I need to put in. And yes, sometimes I work all seven days in a week.

If you think about it, there are a lot of people that work long or strange hours. Why should poker be any different?
There are very few people who can do something addictive every day and not get addicted... Hope that denial taste good

Your analogy is so ****ing bad it's hilarious. Makes no sense

If you're this fooled by negative word association how can you even be self aware enough to beat the game?

Last edited by AceofLaid; 09-22-2017 at 12:43 AM.
AceofLaid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 12:37 AM   #57
MofoAgro
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MofoAgro Land
Posts: 168
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

A great way to determine if you have a gambling problem is if anybody you love or is very close to you thinks you have a gambling problem.

Okay, yall can stfu now.

Thank you.
MofoAgro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 12:39 AM   #58
AceofLaid
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 129
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
The psychiatric definition of addiction includes:


There is a big difference between this and the secondary definition of addicted:


Both winning and losing poker players could fit one or the other definition. The amount of time spent at the activity, nor the amount of money won or lost, is not determinant of which definition applies. You are not an "addict" in the first sense just because you love an activity and are enthusiastically devoted to it. On the other hand, imo it is unlikely that someone suffering from the affliction described in the first sense will be a winning player (but not impossible).
Very few people and I mean like VERY few in the entire world. Can do addictive things every day without forming an addiction to the point of assuming you're one has only one cause.... you being an idiot. Whoever "you" is

Something does not need to be a problem for it to be an addiciton.
AceofLaid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 01:58 AM   #59
Poker Clif
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,612
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
The psychiatric definition of addiction includes:


There is a big difference between this and the secondary definition of addicted:


Both winning and losing poker players could fit one or the other definition. The amount of time spent at the activity, nor the amount of money won or lost, is not determinant of which definition applies. You are not an "addict" in the first sense just because you love an activity and are enthusiastically devoted to it. On the other hand, imo it is unlikely that someone suffering from the affliction described in the first sense will be a winning player (but not impossible).
I agree with everything that you wrote, but there is a option that hasn't been considered. Someone could be addicted in the sense that they lost control, or they could love what they do. The third option is that they aren't addicted and they don't like their job--but it's more money than they could make doing anything else.
Poker Clif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 02:14 AM   #60
Poker Clif
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,612
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MofoAgro View Post
A great way to determine if you have a gambling problem is if anybody you love or is very close to you thinks you have a gambling problem.

Okay, yall can stfu now.

Thank you.
When I told my brother-in-law and his wife that playing poker was my job, SIL told me that they don't have a computer because she used to be addicted to online casino gambling. That was really awkward.

There are a lot of people out there who don't know, or don't want to know, that poker is a competition where skill is necessary to be a consistent winner. When someone has seen problem gambling up close they often don't want to hear or believe that a card game can be a legitimate way to make an income. Someone with that experiencet might assume that I am a problem gambler, but that doesn't make it true.

I was a men's supervisor at a rescue mission for several years. At least half of the men that I saw had a problem with alcohol (sometimes along with other drugs.) That doesn't mean that if I see someone drinking a beer or buying a bottle of wine I'm going to assume that he's an alcoholic.
Poker Clif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 08:03 AM   #61
PokerXanadu
Commander X-2
 
PokerXanadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,449
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AceofLaid View Post
Very few people and I mean like VERY few in the entire world. Can do addictive things every day without forming an addiction to the point of assuming you're one has only one cause.... you being an idiot. Whoever "you" is

Something does not need to be a problem for it to be an addiciton.
Your statements assumes that playing poker (or any gambling for that matter) is inherently an addictive activity in the same way that drugs are addictive. I disagree.

Drugs have a physical effect on the body that cause a physical addiction. Behavioral activities such as gambling do not. Behavioral addiction is emotional and not everyone is susceptible (just a very small percentage of the population per gambling studies), regardless of how much time "you" spend at the activity.
PokerXanadu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 03:23 PM   #62
AceofLaid
centurion
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 129
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
Your statements assumes that playing poker (or any gambling for that matter) is inherently an addictive activity in the same way that drugs are addictive. I disagree.

Drugs have a physical effect on the body that cause a physical addiction. Behavioral activities such as gambling do not. Behavioral addiction is emotional and not everyone is susceptible (just a very small percentage of the population per gambling studies), regardless of how much time "you" spend at the activity.
It's the one compulsory behavior that almost anyone can get addicted to, that is the widely considered truth of it not my opinion. Where as something like exercise is far rarer. All denial looks the same to me.

Problem gambler doesnt mean addict. They are not interchangeable terms

Being an addict itself is not inherently negative

Last edited by AceofLaid; 09-22-2017 at 03:30 PM.
AceofLaid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 05:37 PM   #63
MofoAgro
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MofoAgro Land
Posts: 168
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Clif View Post
When I told my brother-in-law and his wife that playing poker was my job, SIL told me that they don't have a computer because she used to be addicted to online casino gambling. That was really awkward.

There are a lot of people out there who don't know, or don't want to know, that poker is a competition where skill is necessary to be a consistent winner. When someone has seen problem gambling up close they often don't want to hear or believe that a card game can be a legitimate way to make an income. Someone with that experiencet might assume that I am a problem gambler, but that doesn't make it true.

I was a men's supervisor at a rescue mission for several years. At least half of the men that I saw had a problem with alcohol (sometimes along with other drugs.) That doesn't mean that if I see someone drinking a beer or buying a bottle of wine I'm going to assume that he's an alcoholic.
Np question. Huge difference between a big drinker and an Allie hall ic.
MofoAgro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 06:17 PM   #64
MofoAgro
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MofoAgro Land
Posts: 168
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Again, if a family member thinks you have a problem you probably have a problem.

If the player himself thinks he has or may have a problem he probably has a problem.

There are many other signs and 20 questions whether you may or may not have a gambling problem.

The Op's premise of can a winning player be addicted is really a non starter to begin with.

Inherently, it is a ridiculous premise
MofoAgro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 06:21 PM   #65
MofoAgro
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MofoAgro Land
Posts: 168
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker Clif View Post
When I told my brother-in-law and his wife that playing poker was my job, SIL told me that they don't have a computer because she used to be addicted to online casino gambling. That was really awkward.

There are a lot of people out there who don't know, or don't want to know, that poker is a competition where skill is necessary to be a consistent winner. When someone has seen problem gambling up close they often don't want to hear or believe that a card game can be a legitimate way to make an income. Someone with that experiencet might assume that I am a problem gambler, but that doesn't make it true.

I was a men's supervisor at a rescue mission for several years. At least half of the men that I saw had a problem with alcohol (sometimes along with other drugs.) That doesn't mean that if I see someone drinking a beer or buying a bottle of wine I'm going to assume that he's an alcoholic.
Whether or not "people" think a pro poker player is always a problem gambler has nothing to do with whether or not any particular poker player is a problem gambler. I fail to see the point you are trying to make here.

Everyone knows that many pro poker players make a living playing cards...that is not what is being disputed here.
MofoAgro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 06:23 PM   #66
MofoAgro
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MofoAgro Land
Posts: 168
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Another thought is many pro poker players do not exhibit their true addiction and gambling problem at the poker table.

They save that behavior for dice and baccarat. Many of these players are well documented and talked about.
MofoAgro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2017, 04:25 AM   #67
HUMBLE.
adept
 
HUMBLE.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: on my grind, cousin.
Posts: 1,058
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu View Post
In the case of the compulsive gambler, they are not addicted to the pleasures of the activity, but are instead addicted to the negative emotions that occur from losing - the sensation of loss, the feelings of remorse, the guilt of the harm caused to themselves and others. They are not playing to win; they are playing to lose. When they win, they continue to play until they don't, and beyond. This makes it an aberrant behavior that is very difficult to overcome - you can replace a healthy obsession with another should the first one become detrimental to the person's well-being or life; there is no similar easy substitute for compulsive gambling.

Excellent summary and a clear distinction between people who play very often vs those who would be labeled a compulsive gambler.
HUMBLE. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2018, 03:13 AM   #68
omgroi
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 61
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

If you tilt you are an addict.
omgroi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 01:28 AM   #69
felixxx1021
journeyman
 
felixxx1021's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Spewtard City
Posts: 220
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

I believe most people that make money can get addicted to what they're doing, no matter what they play.
felixxx1021 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2018, 11:33 PM   #70
trambopoline
old hand
 
trambopoline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,944
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Is it addiction if you're making 6 figures a year? 7 figures a year? Is the threshold for addiction how many hours per week you play? Or the lifestyle choices that accompany your job? (ie no exercise, fast food, staring at screen for 24 hours straight) Society paints a thin line betwseen a problem gambler and a professional gambler. IMO that line is whether you win or not. I think a lot of non poker players could sympathize with someone who puts in 60 hours per week whilst making poor lifestyle choices but makes a few hundred K per year. I wouldnt call that addiction, some may tho. OP I often wonder the same things. Because I think that most players need to be at least somewhat addicted to the game in order to get really good. Or at least it helps alot. That raw desire to outplay your opponent can be a game changer
trambopoline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2018, 02:03 AM   #71
Poker Clif
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,612
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trambopoline View Post
Is it addiction if you're making 6 figures a year? 7 figures a year? Is the threshold for addiction how many hours per week you play? Or the lifestyle choices that accompany your job? (ie no exercise, fast food, staring at screen for 24 hours straight) Society paints a thin line betwseen a problem gambler and a professional gambler. IMO that line is whether you win or not. I think a lot of non poker players could sympathize with someone who puts in 60 hours per week whilst making poor lifestyle choices but makes a few hundred K per year. I wouldnt call that addiction, some may tho. OP I often wonder the same things. Because I think that most players need to be at least somewhat addicted to the game in order to get really good. Or at least it helps alot. That raw desire to outplay your opponent can be a game changer
I agree, especially with your reluctance to call serious poker play an "addiction." Yes, if you want to get really good at just about anything, you have to be committed and put in the hours. You could say that of poker, baseball, playing the piano, or becoming a surgeon.

That said, we don't call surgeons or piano players who rise to the top of their fields "addicts," even if they put in as many hours as someone listed in the Global Poker Index top 100.
Poker Clif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2018, 03:41 PM   #72
Nozsr
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: between sessions
Posts: 1,122
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Hi, my name is Noz.

I need help.

Perhaps, as I sometimes confess to being, "pathologically obsessed with winning" is what really delivers results if one wants to win at most games of skill.

Even Monopoly has math roots and math decisions if played optimally. Plus a little "play the player" if, as serious players play, trading among the players happens.

Chess, for example.

Bridge.

Poker.

Throwing coins against the wall to see who comes closest. (no math but whatever...)

Anything where there is a winner and a loser actually.

Why play unless you want to optimize your satisfaction?
Nozsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 06:20 PM   #73
Top Pig
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 477
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

I'd say no. Becuz any WINNING player would after a few years winning, utterly hate the game. There's nothing addictive about having to work through the same ****ty downswings and break even stretches with zero social aspect to it.

Perhaps exceptions are lifetime sunrunners like Fedor and Carrel who couldn't actually lose if they regged 100 million tournaments then logged off. Who wouldn't get addicted to that riggedness?
Top Pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2018, 06:24 PM   #74
Kelvis
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,091
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozsr View Post
Hi, my name is Noz.

I need help.

Perhaps, as I sometimes confess to being, "pathologically obsessed with winning" is what really delivers results if one wants to win at most games of skill.

Even Monopoly has math roots and math decisions if played optimally. Plus a little "play the player" if, as serious players play, trading among the players happens.

Chess, for example.

Bridge.

Poker.

Throwing coins against the wall to see who comes closest. (no math but whatever...)

Anything where there is a winner and a loser actually.

Why play unless you want to optimize your satisfaction?
Why and what do you need help with? To stop winning?
Kelvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 08:47 AM   #75
Poker Clif
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,612
Re: Can You Be Addicted to Poker as a Winning Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Pig View Post
I'd say no. Becuz any WINNING player would after a few years winning, utterly hate the game. There's nothing addictive about having to work through the same ****ty downswings and break even stretches with zero social aspect to it.

Perhaps exceptions are lifetime sunrunners like Fedor and Carrel who couldn't actually lose if they regged 100 million tournaments then logged off. Who wouldn't get addicted to that riggedness?
.


Phil Hellmuth, Daniel Negreanu and Mike Sexton have all played poker at a high level for 20 years or more. As far as I know they are still winning--Sexton is in his 60s and still making final tables on the WPT. I don't think that any of the three hate poker. Perhaps you are projecting.
Poker Clif is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online