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Whole board comes out before action is completed. Whole board comes out before action is completed.

08-19-2017 , 07:47 PM
Cash game.

A bets $10. B calls. C shoves. A calls.

Dealer collects chips and deals whole board.
B says - hey I didnt get to act.

How do you rule it?

Im in favor of either 1. Bs hand is dead or 2. B contends for $10 from each plus main and A and Cs shove/call is a side pot.

Change my mind or stick with me....you make the call.

(Btw as soon as I got to table they had all already agreed to give all bets back and deal again so thats what the ruling was technically I guess)

Edit...A tabled hand after river hit

Last edited by DetroitJunkie; 08-19-2017 at 07:57 PM.
Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-19-2017 , 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitJunkie
Cash game.

A bets $10. B calls. C shoves. A calls.

Dealer collects chips and deals whole board.
B says - hey I didnt get to act.

How do you rule it?

Im in favor of either 1. Bs hand is dead or 2. B contends for $10 from each plus main and A and Cs shove/call is a side pot.

Change my mind or stick with me....you make the call.

(Btw as soon as I got to table they had all already agreed to give all bets back and deal again so thats what the ruling was technically I guess)

Edit...A tabled hand after river hit
Premature board gets shuffled back in and action is on B preflop


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Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-19-2017 , 08:31 PM
I'm not sure how the whole board gets dealt before B notices and interjects, so his hand is dead, unless there is some reasonable explanation given for that.
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08-19-2017 , 08:34 PM
i would rule misdeal
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08-19-2017 , 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
, unless there is some reasonable explanation given for that.
Im not sure there is one.
Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-19-2017 , 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitJunkie
Dealer collects chips and deals whole board.
B says - hey I didnt get to act.
B watches dealer pull in the bets.
He watches dealer burn, deal out three cards, spread them, burn and bring a fourth card, burn and bring a fifth.
Player A tables his hand.

And now B speaks up?

Dead hand. $10 stays in the pot.
Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-19-2017 , 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
I'm not sure how the whole board gets dealt before B notices and interjects, so his hand is dead, unless there is some reasonable explanation given for that.
And Players A and C never noticed that B never called?
And where was the Dealer's mind at?
Was Player B named Griffin?

But, like steamedrice said above, dead hand, $10 stays in pot.
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08-19-2017 , 11:51 PM
Agree with most. B's hand is dead and his $10 stays in the pot.
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08-20-2017 , 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
Premature board gets shuffled back in and action is on B preflop
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
i would rule misdeal
I'm gonna go with...B wins the whole pot including the uncalled bets.
Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-20-2017 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitJunkie
Cash game.

A bets $10. B calls. C shoves. A calls.

...

Dealer collects chips and deals whole board.
B says - hey I didnt get to act.

...

...A tabled hand after river hit

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh
I'm not sure how the whole board gets dealt before B notices and interjects, so his hand is dead, unless there is some reasonable explanation given for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steamraise
B watches dealer pull in the bets.
He watches dealer burn, deal out three cards, spread them, burn and bring a fourth card, burn and bring a fifth.
Player A tables his hand.

And now B speaks up?

Dead hand. $10 stays in the pot.
I've seen dealers deal pretty quickly. Not fast enough that if B was paying attention, they could have spoke up, but fast enough that a distracted player would have noticed too late. Regardless of the reason B was distracted... dead hand and the $10 stays in. Do I feel bad for B is they were tanking, and thinking ranges and pot equity? Yes, but not bad enough to change the ruling.

Same thoughts for A & C. Once they shove and/or call the all-in, some players (incorrectly) tune-out and wait for the board to run out. Failing to protect the game falls on their shoulders as well. Someone missed a chance to collect a big pot, for failing to pay attention. Maybe it's a lesson learned.
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08-20-2017 , 12:06 PM
this has happened to me before but it was heads up and my action. my hand was ruled live and made bottom set on the second flop.
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08-20-2017 , 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
this has happened to me before but it was heads up and my action. my hand was ruled live and made bottom set on the second flop.
Please tell us how you managed to not notice an entire board being dealt out before you said anything.
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08-20-2017 , 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
this has happened to me before but it was heads up and my action. my hand was ruled live and made bottom set on the second flop.


It was heads up and the dealer dealt a flop, turn and river thinking only one player was in the hand?
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08-20-2017 , 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlz517
It was heads up and the dealer dealt a flop, turn and river thinking only one player was in the hand?
Perhaps he thought one of them was all-in.
Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-20-2017 , 04:04 PM
it was just the flop
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08-20-2017 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
I'm gonna go with...B wins the whole pot including the uncalled bets.
hah, because he would have too, he had a set of 5's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuma
it was just the flop
totally different scenario

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue56
I've seen dealers deal pretty quickly. Not fast enough that if B was paying attention, they could have spoke up, but fast enough that a distracted player would have noticed too late. .
this dealer has a BAD habit of leaving the bets in front of the players too, I have spoken with him AGAIN about this issue.

however, yes B was not paying attention, for some reason, either. two wrongs at the wrong time.

if I had to rule I would have gone with dead hand, however I am glad they reached an agreement on their own with no fuss, it was a jovial $1-$2 game and they didnt want to disrupt that, good for them.
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08-21-2017 , 08:42 AM
Robert's Rules ... Irregularities #15 ... If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.

This is pretty straight forward here ... It's somewhat reinforced in the Hold'em section but there's nothing that directly states 'board', only single streets. Can we really drag significant action into this since 3 streets have passed but there really was no 'action'? Has Player B 'timely' notified the Dealer of the error once he started paying attention again?

I'm not saying I don't like a dead hand ruling, but I guess I would allow for some other factors to influence me like whether or not the stub and burn cards are still 'in tact' separate from the muck as a primary observation.

Where this gets interesting is that if it was still multi-way and 'Player D' had also called the all-in and we were still on the Flop with action pending between A and D (and B?). We would almost certainly (I think) rule Player B's hand dead due to 'real' action behind by D and the Flop coming out (and perhaps Flop action by A or D).

This comes down to ruling that 3 streets being dealt is or is not 'action' ... and being able to properly reconstruct the stub if it is 'not' action. No winner here and glad they came to an agreement before the ruling. GL
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08-21-2017 , 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
Can we really drag significant action into this since 3 streets have passed but there really was no 'action'? Has Player B 'timely' notified the Dealer of the error once he started paying attention again?

I'm not saying I don't like a dead hand ruling, but I guess I would allow for some other factors to influence me like whether or not the stub and burn cards are still 'in tact' separate from the muck as a primary observation.
Yes, all the action took place prior to the board being dealt out. I don't know why it would be different than a single premature card. No matter who's "fault" it is, the cards should all be shuffled back and then the guy can decide if he wants to call.
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08-21-2017 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
Can we really drag significant action into this since 3 streets have passed but there really was no 'action'?
Yours is the first post ITT to mention significant action.
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08-21-2017 , 09:39 AM
I think you mean 'No', we shouldn't drag significant action into this conversation AND 'Yes' Player B has timely notified the Dealer of the error.

I would prefer we back things up here ... and have seen this happen once or twice. But I'm also leaving the door open to a dead hand if other factors inch there way into the decision. GL
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08-21-2017 , 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
Yes, all the action took place prior to the board being dealt out. I don't know why it would be different than a single premature card. No matter who's "fault" it is, the cards should all be shuffled back and then the guy can decide if he wants to call.
You don't know why speaking up after a premature collecting of chips, burn, flop one, flop two, flop three, spread flop, burn, turn, burn, river would be different from speaking up after a premature burn and turn?
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08-21-2017 , 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
You don't know why speaking up after a premature collecting of chips, burn, flop one, flop two, flop three, spread flop, burn, turn, burn, river would be different from speaking up after a premature burn and turn?
so you wanna penalize him for not speaking up sooner when it was the dealers fault?

and yes, having played thousand of hours of live poker I can definitely see this happening.
Whole board comes out before action is completed. Quote
08-21-2017 , 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
Yours is the first post ITT to mention significant action.
What other basis is there for declaring this a dead hand? Too much happening after a player should've acted is considered significant action. If we don't rule that 3 streets of the board coming out is 'significant' then action is still on Player B since there are no players behind B that have acted either ... back it up and let Player B act.

I'm also the only one so far to mention not being able to get the stub back in order (which apparently was not the case here) as a Plan B that would allow for declaring a dead hand. GL
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08-21-2017 , 10:15 AM
Significant action isn't actually a rule, but when we say it, we mean this rule:
Quote:
12. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.
Unfortunately, this rule has a few shortcomings.
(1) it doesn't specifically tell us what the penalty is for not protecting your right to act. You "lose the right to act", but what does that mean? Dead hand? Non-aggressive actions only?
(2) it doesn't take into account whether or not the dealer putting out the next street(s) of cards should be considered actions, or worse.

As A20 noted, there is also a rule about premature cards being dealt:
Quote:
15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.
Obviously, these rules are (or can be) at odds. There can be many interpretations, and context for what happens probably matters.

Generally speaking, for #15 above, we use this rule to handle what happens when a dealer messes up and (quickly) puts out the next street not seeing that action still remains on the previous street. This is the rule you use when the player is not at fault, or it is indeterminate.

Rule #12 is generally used when a player lets OOT action proceed behind him, and is at fault for allowing it. In this case, the penalty is not proscribed, but we will generally either kill his hand or not allow him aggressive action. The floor needs to determine which is appropriate based on the totality of the context. If not too much other action occurred and allowing the player to call does not cause much advantage to the player or disadvantage to the other players, or if the player can convince the floor that he did not have a nefarious purpose, you attempt to let him call (or check) and continue on.

If, however, it is clear that the player is trying to get away with a freeroll, or get off without paying a bet, or in some other way makes it problematic to allow him to check or call without gaining unfair advantage, then you kill his hand.

In this case, player B waits what appears to be a long, long time before speaking up, after not one but three streets are dealt. [Absent DJs clarification that he was distracted], it is likely he is trying to freeroll. He doesn't like the board that came out, so he speaks up and tries to get a new one. If he did like it, he stays silent, and attempts to play in turn and hopes no one realizes he never called the earlier bet.

IMO, this behavior must be punished, unless there is some other reasonable explanation for his delay in raising the alarm. We cannot allow a new board to be dealt. His hand must be killed.

Even with DJs explanation that he was distracted, while I would be tempted to give the player the benefit of the doubt, after so much action has occurred, it is very bad to back up three streets of action, allow him to call, and then redeal the entire board. In this case you also have to apologize and kill his hand, and hope he realizes that his distraction is what caused the issue, and there is no fairer way to correct the problem that doesn't potentially harm the other players.

As played, it is good the players came to their own agreement about it and didn't force in a ruling. Good on them.
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08-21-2017 , 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playbig2000
so you wanna penalize him for not speaking up sooner when it was the dealers fault?

and yes, having played thousand of hours of live poker I can definitely see this happening.
I mean, I would have to turn the question back around to you and ask how long the process would have to take for you to see a difference between it and a premature burn and turn. If there is no length of time, then we fundamentally disagree.
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