Hey all responding to some of this now and hopefully clarifying my position/some general knowledge. Apologies for the time in between posts. I have posted a bunch on Reddit so check out this thread as well if you are interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comme...sed_situation/
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinpoker
Gripsed has 500-600 videos on youtube with a far greater amount of content maybe the clicks/views is dispersed over a wider range ? add the fact that Jaime has a larger following on Twitch that he sends to youtube to view recorded Twitch content (ie the content they prefer to watch) and that may explain the numbers some what ? I am not saying this is so I am directing this as question really .
I don't think anything weird is going on with Youtube. His numbers seem consistent with the amount of content he puts out. Also the amount of views he gets in relation to how long his channel has been active seems to make sense. You can see that data here:
http://socialblade.com/youtube/user/gripsed/monthly (the big down day is likely a Youtube reporting error)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostFlopRepop
you need to get lost, you're not welcome in my reddit thread either but like a genital wart, you linger. Straddling Gripsed like a muppet minion. You got no credibiity. All you have are excuses, and hypothetical's. Please show us your picture, i gotta know what you look like .....
FTHustla I owe you credit for making this post. I'm going to cross post my response to you on reddit here:
Why didn't I bring it to light sooner?
two reasons:
1. I wanted to make sure it was actually happening. Flukes can happen or something out of what logically makes sense once or twice. I wanted to make sure that was not the case.
2. I was scared. Like I mention in my OP I consider Gripsed a friend and we have spent a lot of time talking together. It's a gross feeling to have to denounce their actions like this. I didn't want to do it. I also don't gain anything from doing this. I am almost always ranking higher in the listing so my equity isn't being taken here. It's streamers that move from 3 to 4, 4 to 5, 5 to 6, etc that are getting taken from.
I owe you a ton of credit for coming forward with it because I'm not sure if I would of taken action if someone hadn't have brought it up first. That is really weak and pathetic and I have thought a lot about that over the last 48 hours. I will get better next time as a person and stand up for what's right sooner.
You definitely deserve credit for saying what others didn't.
Why did I create this thread instead of post in yours? Well it was a day old so my thoughts were going to be burried. I thought my thoughts would add a lot to the conversation and would help in getting people to understand what is happening. The second reason is that the discussion was framed in a way attacking Gripsed the human not attacking the Issue which is not what I wanted to get behind. So I decided to re-frame it slightly to hopefully have the most constructive conversation possible.
I didn't do this for an image boost if that's what you are thinking. I could understand why you would think that I'm trying to get the attention here but I'm trying to right a wrong.
Bullets: That accusation was the thing that caused me to speak up. Selfish and not right but true. You do deserve the credit for being first mover on this. I apologize for not making that clear in the OP of this post and others.
Jaime
When it comes to Lost in Poker however, I think the guy is completely blameless in all of this. He has been nothing but helpful to me and my roommates when it comes to Twitch poker. The guy would have no part in viewbotting and as such I think deserves no blame for watching lots of Gripsed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg
another strange things are the twitter 1% giveaways. i experienced on all streams that the kids jump on those things pretty fast. And when gripsed got like 1.4k viewers or smth and was like 37 left in the super tuesday, he tried to convince people to retweet him. that was sure money the viewers could win, but only 70ish people retweeted out of 1.4k viewers. pretty strange for the twitch community to not jump on the free money train. So thats another indication that there are viewbots involved.
This is pretty normal I think. There could be a correlation but more about engagement then viewers. Also Twitch viewers does not necessarily mean Twitter activity. I run these Retweet contests as well and get similar numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magking1
I dont know about all this botting stuff BUT
Jamie and others calling a guy scummy because he makes a donation while online..
come on what world are you living in?
Seems pretty fair to me, at least he is paying for the commercial.
It probably sounds a bit murky the way I originally framed it so I will cross post a similar question's response from reddit:
The donation thing is probably a bit grey for a lot of people that have never streamed but here is how it commonly happened. Donations would come in from Gripsed while we were both streaming on the same day. Is this allowed? of course it is! If streamers are going to accept donations with messages (like me) they can come from anyone. That said, no other streamers ever donate to others while they are streaming. The motives are clear in that it is an attempt to advertise himself and his channel. Is that allowed? yes. Is it good etiquette? No. It's circumventing a system that is designed for viewers and using it as advertisement. The opportunity for him to reach out to any of the streamers and try and do cross promo is there. We all have each other on skype/social media. It's basically forcing promotion without asking which is why it rubs me and other streamers the wrong way.
Again I wan't to make clear this is not against the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_of_m
I heard about this debate and initially guessed it was just gossip. Then I was directed to this thread and saw that Jaime did indeed post here. For the record, I have a high degree of respect for Jaime's opinion. He's probably more informed on Twitch matters than anybody in the poker community.
Please note the following points, which are only my opinion based on my best understanding of things.
1. Viewbotting is diligently policed by Twitch. It is explicitly forbidden. I know of several cases of people not getting partnership just because they were accused of viewbotting, with no proof made public by the company. I am also pretty sure that partnerships have been taken away from people for viewbotting in the past, though nobody I can remember at this time.
2. I have been told in the past that some people get viewbotted against their will. In other words, there are streamers who have claimed they had nothing to do with such bots. Maybe somebody else with a lot of cash is a massive fan and pays some service. Or maybe somebody with hacking skills sets it up on their own with the streamer having no knowledge of it. While I know this point will be hard to accept, what I am trying to say is this: IF there is viewbotting, one cannot assume that Gripsed is necessarily behind it. Jaime himself made that point, but it is quite buried in his post.
3. Can we put a percentage on the likelihood that there is or is not view-botting, and if so what are the odds he is behind it? Others more knowledgeable than I have made posts and stated opinions. I am just making the point that the evidence does not make either possibility 100%. Many innocent people have been hung and executed for crimes they did not commit based on much stronger circumstantial evidence than what I have seen so far. I'm not necessarily saying he is blameless here, because I really don't know. Deep down inside, I just hate the idea of a lynch mob being incited based on circumstantial and limited data. Especially when someone's livelihood is at stake.
As for some other points made here, whenever you are a public person there will be those who like you and those who don't. Many things said in this thread about Gripsed and Jaime for that matter have nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is viewbotting. If somebody has hard evidence, please let them come forward and present it.
1. Yes this is true. I know it is common for people not to agree with Twitch's response to these situations but they are really in a tough spot with contracts. Can refer to my OP yesterday to read more about it.
2. This is also true. The reason why it is hard for Twitch to do anything is some wealthy troll could have put this on. It's why I want to attack the issue here not Gripsed himself. I have a lot of reasons to believe he is the one doing this. The logic is a problem here: why would anyone troll Gripsed he is maybe the 7th or 8th biggest streamer and just been away for months? Why would they pay to troll him instead of being a **** head in his chat or on his social media first?
There is also a history of Gripsed doing blatant self promotion that wouldn't be considered good etiquette by any streamer. Posting in MY chat 30 min before I am live "hey guys I'm streaming right now twitch.tv/gripsed". Whispering people in my chat, donating while we are both streaming saying GL (to promote himself), asking for video collaborations in donation messages as opposed to personally over skype, etc.
These are not hard prrof but put together they make it extremely likely to me it is him doing this not a third party.
3. I would take 50 to 1 it is him or someone he told to do it (based on the above info and graph data.)
With all of that in mind, I still really hope this isn't a thread about not liking Gripsed. The issue is very important in our community and I think it is what should be targeted not whether he is a nice guy or not. As I said on Reddit and now here, if the issue gets fixed, I will be the first to support him. It takes a big person to publicly right a wrong like this and I am really hoping it happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_of_m
Jaime's point has more to do with Twitch etiquette and a general sense of Gripsed's character. Advertising one's channel in somebody else's chat is looked down upon. Since this happened a while ago, it's possible that Gripsed's understanding of etiquette has changed since then.
I have seen Gripsed support a lot of other streamers. I am sure there is some element of self interest in what most streamers do. Haven't personally seen him cross the line in that regard. But whether you agree or disagree, Jaime's point is relevant in the Twitch community. Some streamers have even banned other streamers for doing similar things in their chat.
See above. He crossed the line a few times but the line is grey for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oracle3001
All you arguments have already been pretty much dismantled either here or on Reddit from just how much twitch can and do police viewbotting to the likelihood that somebody else viewbotting your channel and that you neither know or don't report it.
1) Twitch take a very cautious attitude to outright bans for a number of legal reasons.
2) Those partnered streams have a dedicated skype group where they can communicate directly with twitch employees.
3) You get all sorts of stats about your channel, so it become fairly obvious when and how you get a big bump
4) This bump in traffic has been occurring over a reasonable length of time.
5) That would allow the channel operator to see that they are getting a weird bump and if it isn't from them plenty of opportunity to bring it up with the twitch people directly.
6) Yes people have tried to ruin the rep of other twitch streamers with putting a viewbot on them, then reporting them. However, it seems from Staples statements that twitch are well aware of this now and tell their partnered streams to look out for it and report it.
Perhaps it is all a big misunderstanding, but I doubt Gripsed hasn't seen this thread or the one on Reddit...and I believe people pointed them out to him in chat on twitch (I think in Tonkaaaa's channel when Gripsed was there). But radio silence on this issue, but he is still tweeting away promo stuff today.
I agree with you mostly here except I think Twitch cares about viewbots quite a bit. Other then that it is very clear to me that he is doing this. I hope I take the flack and am wrong but the evidence is too strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostFlopRepop
That'll show me sir, I may just ease up in the future because I saw one minion beg to differ. I started ALL of this. Whether or not you like or hate the way I may reply to a few over on the reddit streets, should not overlook the fact of what I did to bring this out.
Lets not bull****, he's been doing this for years, no one was gonna say anything. Not even Jaime, he came out the woodwork after I brought this to light. I got the inkling, and got to work. That's why you have seen me fighting on my reddit, it's because I am super passionate about twitch poker and the people there.
I think I may deserve some credit.
You deserve a lot of credit. See my reply in your other quote above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuFisch
If I played a random bovada homegame and all of a sudden 1k viewers popped up on stream, I for sure would be puzzled and would contact twitch about this instead of just claiming to be a top streamer with so many viewers.
Common sense just makes it impossible for gripsed to be not the viewbotter himself. Usually I'm 100% with the "innocent until it's proved", but using inductive logic instead of deducitve logic should be sufficiant in this case.
Another streamer here if anyone is wondering. I think the evidense is too conclusive for this to be a mistake.