https://youtu.be/dvVnS_kG1SU?t=20764

1. The hand plays out and Garrett gets pwned by Charles who called his pure air ball bluff.

2. Showdown action is on Garrett but rather than take his only two options of showing down or mucking Garrett goes for the more greasy & slimey option of the angle shoot by saying "You're good".

Now for all the filthy casuals that think this is an acceptable action let me tell you that it's not.

It's angle shooting all day everyday!

The angle shooter is angling to gain one of two advantages or both.

A) The angle shooter is trying not to reveal details of the strength of his hand or how he played it.

B) The angle shooter is not mucking his hand because if you showdown a weaker hand he then wants to showdown out of turn and try to win the pot.

Neither of these options are good for you!

The angle only works if you are a willing participant and allow yourself to be tricked into showing down out of turn.

3. When Garrett realised that Charles was having none of it Garrett eventually capitulated and followed the rules by showing down in the correct order.

≈≈≈===============

Now I'm sure Garrett had no bad intention towards Charles and it's just a bad habit Garrett has.

But what the commentator Nick did after the hand is totally out of line.

Nick goes on an extended rant making chat opinion polls and promoting the chat to vote and all sorts.

Garrett was the one angle shooting Charles!
Nick calls into question the ethics and etiquette of the victim of the angle, Charles!
Nick even brings Wesley's etiquette into question.

In the context of Charles crushing wthe whole show it just left me with a greasy & slimey sour feeling 😑


The only ethical thing for Nick to do in my opinion is make a public apology to both Charles and Wesley.

1. Garrett did nothing wrong. It’s 100% customary to say “you win” “you got it”, and for other pros/semi regs to turn over their hand and not make the defeated player show. Especially if it’s a whale/fish/rich reg, who you don’t want to embarrass.

2. Charles technically has every right to see Garrett’s hand or tell him to muck. Maybe he wants the info, or maybe in this specific case he’s not even sure if AK high is good, but Garrett doesn’t seem like the type to “you got it” someone with a pair or good ace etc

3. It’s just all an etiquette thing… some clown keeps bluffing you want him to continue to do so. You don’t publicly “shame” him and make him show complete air, it’s dumb and annoying. This doesn’t apply to Garrett but still

To think this is an angle is semi-absurd

The showdown dance seems extra dumb when you’re on a livestream…

Garrett should Insta show and Charles should also Insta show at showdown for this reason.

It’s kind of bad etiquette for Charles to make Garrett show. The announcer nick has a point.

The worst part is it slows down the game and creates an unfriendly atmosphere which basically makes the game worse.

I got caught bluffing other day I said you’re good and showed my air proudly.

Garett always does this, i dont know if its an LA thing or something but its very annoying.

You got called, show or muck. He is a top pro and should know this.

Honestly fk Nick, he’d ride Garett’s d.k to the moon if he could.

Also is it Hustler’s ruling that if you muck, the winner still has to show his hand? I can understand Garett’s reluctance to show his hand if thats the case

Doing that is pretty standard everywhere I've played.

It's just another way of saying "I don't want to show but would like to see your hand. Are you going to make me?"

The more I think about it AK is going to be reluctant to show here it’s not like he knows 100% he’s even good. There’s a small chance G man has a small pair here that he turned into a bluff.

What doesn’t make sense is why a pros pro like g man doesn’t just proudly show his hand considering everyone can see his cards anyways. I would be showing my bluffs proudly if I’m in his spot. I guess it’s just ego not wanting to show.

And yeah the showdown dance is universal.

I think it’s poor etiquette when someone has the nuts or near nuts and waits for the loser to show (to get more info) bc of the order of action despite it being within the rules.

But scumbags have to scumbag. So this will never end.

Specific rules of each casino aside if we are talking pure etiquette...

Garrett should muck his airball bluff and allow Charles to win by last man standing.

It's ridiculous to expect Charles to be forced to showdown (The winner, the one who did everything right ✅️)

But not expect the loser to show.

How does the loser have an advantage.

But the winner loses an advantage.

Garrett doesn't want the table to see his weak hand.

Well maybe Charles (the one who deserves an advantage) maybe Charles doesn't want the table to see how he called down Garrett lightly with ace high.

You just got caught bluffing, muck your damn hand and don't object to Charles winning by being the last man standing and don't make him show his hand...

Yeah the ruling is pretty bad if the winner is forced to show his hand, dont know any casino that has that ruling unless its a tournament.

Garett does say « Just say you wanna see my hand!
Charles responds no i dont wanna see your hand (as in if you muck i muck)
then Garett says im gonna see yours either way » not sure if he was referring to see it on the stream later on or see it right away.

Showdown or Muck

ANYTHING other than that is an angle.


Just because you've wrapped the angle up in the soft innocent looking etiquette blanket doesn't mean it's any less of an angle.

You're just diminishing the value of etiquette by allowing these greasy and slimey areas into the game.


Having said that...

People say you're good every day and I'm happy to let it slide but I'm not in denial about what's actually happening.


The point of this thread is Nick's extended on stream rant calling into question Charles ethical standards and etiquette using YouTube poles and wot not.

I can’t blame anyone for not showing AK first there when they don’t have to to as the other player may have turned a pair into a bluff. That’s unlikely for Garrett since I don’t think he would say you’re good unless he 100 percent knows he can never win a showdown but I think it’s very possible another player would say that with a small pair or whatever so I wouldn’t be super eager to show my hand first if I check called an over bet with that. In general I just show my hand if I get caught bluffing and call it a day.

Once you say you're good and they don't immediately turn over their hand, it's up to you to either turn over your own or surrender the pot by throwing it in the muck. By saying "you're good", you're making it clear you'd prefer not to show but when they don't react to that by turning over their own hand, they're making it clear you need to show if you want them to show.

Garrett should probably just have flipped. Although this doesnt merit any backlash from poker community seeing as Garrett has a pretty spotless reputation. Besides, flipping right away and showing bluff is good for business and future ROI.

I mean that's kinda what an angle is lol

Technically it may be an angle but I have never played at a cash game where what Garrett did wasn't 100% standard and much more common than people actually showing their bluffs.

In fact, people who force the bluffer to show first are considered nitty at best, and probably an ahole by the rest of the table.

That’s not true. Like Charles said in the clip, he didnt want to see Garetts hand, he just didnt want to show his hand if Garett doesn’t show which is 100% fair.

However if the bluffer mucks and you still wanna see his hand then thats a different story.

Lol @ Nick for going straight to Garett’s defense, f-ing pathetic.

As an exclusively online player this seems easily solved to me. All hands that go to showdown must be shown. Ive always thought the showdown dance was a stupid waste of time. Also i dont get why people are ashamed to show a bluff. Its a very important part of poker if you want to beat anything past 5NL online and whatever the comparative live stakes are.

First, this doesn’t seem that big of a deal and happens all the time.

Second, let’s call a spade a spade. The rules of the game are clear.

Either:

1) Garrett can muck and Charles can muck (or show) too

2) Garrett can show and Charles can decide to muck or show

Anything other than this is trying to gain an edge outside of the rules. Garrett wanting to muck but see Charles’ cards is clearly not abiding by normal rules. His “just say you want to see” bit is a not too classy since HE’S the one breaking rules. Nick - who gives a **** what Nick thinks?

Yeah, the "just say you want to see" stuff was weird as hell

It’s a super minor angle, but bad precedent because 1-3 grinders who want to be Garrett now think that the showdown dance is acceptable and an actual edge (it really is an edge but only to top players who are going to know the GTO line and how you deviated and then how to best exploit you…)

Also as Charles, I’d just use the line “dealer quick muck his hand before he finds a winner” during the showdown dance…

I addressed this exact scenario a few days before this indecent

https://youtu.be/rSc76kNuWyM?t=152

“Good call you win” because he knows the caller won’t be calling with anything worse.

Not an angle in any way.

And when Charles follows Nicks "etiquette" and shows down AK but say Garret actually has 22 and not A9 then what?

You think Garrett is going to muck the winner 22 after saying "You win" ???

No way!
Of course Garrett is going to turn over 22 out of turn and try to win the $55000 pot.

Garrett is holding the cards and not mucking them in case of this exact scenario.

That my friend is an angle.


==================

And in Nick's fantasy etiquette land it's proper etiquette for;

The loser Garrett not to have to turn over and reveal an ace high bluff.

But not proper etiquette for the winner to also want to conceal his ace high call.

Because etiquette though...

Etiquette which "Charles (and Wesley) just don't get"


Watch the show...

Nick just blasts Charles and Wesley non stop for what seemed like an eternity even though the chat is telling Nick that he's wrong.

Nick started his own podcast. It has a cool logo. It's nothing like the Joe Rogan experience logo. It's totally unique.

What really makes this situation weird is that it's an overbet bluff on a paired board and like 15 players saw the turn. Random hands with a 3 or 6 would be real bluffing candidates lol. If I woke up from a fugue state and realized I just called here with ace-high, there's no way in hell I 'd be showing first.