Please god yes

So Fedor Holz is now on team "more rake is better" too. He answered rake-related questions like such a politician. Good on you for calling him out on it and sticking up for the winning player. Love the show, but maybe consider not giving these types of people a platform in the future.

It isn't more rake is better for tournament players so I can understand why tournament players don't care at all. The uncapped rake is funding their livelihood.

Podcast tomorrow w/ Ike Haxton at 4pm EST tomorrow

SCHEDULE
Saturday $5k challenge
Mon - News Show
Tues - Debut Series where I go over a brand/company - WORLD POKER TOUR #1
Weds - Adam Pliska WPT President

In regards to Dan Bilzerian - it brings up an interesting thought experiment on being the greatest poker player in the world or winning the most money. I used to think it was all about being the best and that was all that mattered but I'm now seeing that the winning the most money possible is a different way of looking at it.

From a - who will make better decisions on each street according to what proper theory is - one group will be much better than the other we would assume.

I've researched this idea out probably more than anyone because I found it fascinating - he identified that he if grew a brand associated w/ poker, partying, girls, the lifestyle - he could increase the amount of $$$ his business makes. He would get to play against poker players many of us would dream to play against simply because he was a famous poker player. I'm at a very small level compared to Dan but I get invited to play in games non-stop. The ability to connect w/ people through the social platforms is incredibly easy. I think that he decided that he wouldn't grind that way anymore and if we look at the evolution of poker, that is what it is turning into for many poker players.


HARDCORE GAME SELECTION.


Conclusion: Dan Bilzerian was ahead of his time and a genius at the game of putting himself in super +ev spots to make money.

I'm pretty sure Rick Salomon is the winningest poker player of all time which means he's definitely not a "hobby player". Almost no chance he would want to do a podcast, but if for some reason he did it would be legendary.

According to his divorce with Pam Anderson he won 40 million in 2014 alone. Yes that's right, he was married to Pamela Anderson!

And yeah I see the poker hierarchy in terms of money won, not talent or skill. That's the way I look at who's best. And I think Rick Salomon probably beats a lot of the top pros if they have to play at the nosebleed stakes he plays at with their own money. It takes a level of not giving a fcuk to be able to handle those stakes and thats and underappreciated skill/talent imo. That's why Andy Beal was able to beat the corporation until Ivey stepped in.

he also did a sextape with paris hilton and was married to shannen doherty..
huge out of the box +ev strategy

Live with Ike in about 30 mins

Pretty shitty to hear Fedor become a mouthpiece for GG and take Daniels line on rake. I don't know but I like to think if I was him and won ALL the money from the game that I wouldn't line my pocket with GG money and starting spouting this bollox. It is particularly jarring coming from someone like him who you know has enough intelligence to understand the laughable nature of what he is saying. Predatory nature of players. How can you say that with a straight face while you filling your sack with GG money while justifying the rake situation? I always thought Fedor came across well but don't have much respect for him after that interview.

yea spot on. I would also like to think if I won ALL the monies that you wouldn't be able to pay me enough to spout off BS like that. Hell, I might not even agree to do that NOW as an unknown player with barely a bankroll, even though I could really use the cash... because it is wrong. And like you said, Fedor is smart enough, he knows what he is doing here...

I feel no one really has integrity anymore, or at least it is getting increasingly harder to find.

Paging Diogenes.

https://www.ancient.eu/Diogenes_of_Sinope/

Same as it ever was .....

Whatever. Go sell your soul to the devil. It is his life. I was honestly gobsmacked when he started coming out with the party line. I could see Joey rolling the eyes internally just thinking, oh here we go again. I really did think Fedor was someone who had integrity.

omg joey catch that dnegs blowup.. we kinda need this so wsop starts giving us software dated from 2003

+1

Great podcast with Ike. Really enjoyed it

The Ike podcast was fantastic, such a smart dude

My only criticism was not introducing him as Ike "Hollywood" Haxton

Anyone have insight into this? Anyone know what Doug's Tweet is referring to?

I don't know for certain, but my best guess his tweet is a case of "it takes one to know one".

There's been a lot of comments about rake and player retention in both the Fedor and Ike podcasts.

I think it's important to recognise that there are multiple strategies to reduce losing player loss rates and improve liquidity, and the large sites are by and large adopting the ones that **** over players the most. Sure, it's not ideal that you have 6 max games where regs instantly sit out once the fish leaves, but this isn't because the reg attitude has changed. Poker players, except for strict recreationals and niche situations ('I want to learn 8 game against the best in the world'), have always tried to limit themselves to games in which they were profitable.

In 2010, the difference wasn't that regs thought 'to hell with it, I'll accept a 2bb/100 loss to keep the games running'. Rather, there were three key factors:
1) inter-reg edges tended to be substantially greater within a player pool
2) it wasn't possible to adopt an evaluative approach via solver analysis to one's edge against another player
3) effective rake was lower

Points 1 and 2 are pretty much irretrievably gone in most online games; if you design a game sufficiently complex that solvers can't produce results which can be studied to improve then it's probably also sufficiently complex to be uninteresting to recs.

Point 3 is where the sites need to take blame for the game becoming more predatory. If I'm playing 100NL in 2013, grinding supernova and receiving 55% effective rakeback on 7bb/100 rake, it's much easier for me to mentally justify staying at a table because I think I have an edge against regs which is worth 3.15bb/100. In practice, regs in 2013 left that table because there were tables where they'd have a pre-rake edge in the double digits.

In contrast, nowadays, to stay at a table with regs, I probably need a 6.8bb/100 or similar edge.

tl;dr any arguments regarding rake structure being designed to punish bumhunters are invalid unless and until the rake structure is designed such as to make table starting seem potentially profitable for players. That tends to mean limiting rake to about 25% of normal rake while there are spaces at the table. Unless and until that structure exists, games will continue forming around 40bb/100 losers, and the sites are either encouraging predatory behaviour, or they're actively suggesting that poker is a casino game in which winning is to be discouraged.

Your whole post still attacks the problem from the "winning" regular point of view and one who only enters the game if they feel it is a profitable one.

I think what you and others fail to see is that of the recreational perspective for entering the game is often vastly different than the qualities expressed in your post above.

Both Fedor and Ike highlighted the recreational perspective in those podcast and many times it comes down to the element of "fun" or and a "paying for your entertainment" situation.

If that element is not met then many of those type of players will stop showing up in the game.

Honestly I play across 5 different networks right now but if I was just getting into the game I cannot think of a more entertaining environment than what GGPoker is offering in their software to the player right now. They have room to improve on things and it's not all perfect but to some of the posters above calling Fedor, a sellout, etc are not seeing the forest past the trees.

Also, as an example while reducing a player's loss rate might be a strategy I don't think it's as important as making sure that player felt they got an enjoyable experience for their $.

My example for me on GGpoker would be this game:

I've dabbled in the all in or fold game with the bingo card attached to it. While I have a very good shortstack game and understand the 8bb push/folds, I'm fairly certain with the rake that I'm breakeven or losing in this game Vs most lineups and while I don't play the game alot the times I have played it I've thoroughly enjoyed it with the aspect of the jackpot bingo card on the side. It's just been a fun environment, game, and gamble and the other players I've played it with also seemed to be having fun.

That's what I think GGpoker gets better than other networks. Most people, even the top pros in the game got in this game to begin with because it was fun.

I think that GG is on to something with trying to enhance the overall player experience up to modern standards for what people enjoy in gaming. Games are so much more dynamic these days on all platforms (especially mobile) that the regular poker table might be fine for many, but the overall at the table experience could be improved.

We haven't seen much innovation in the industry because Pokerstars has had such a dominant position. There hasn't been much new competition in the industry but I think we will see much much more. This is an industry waiting to be taken over by anyone who gives a **** to do so and is smart about their process. People love to watch and play the game of poker.

There have been several failed attempts at innovation - by RIO, MPN etc which just underscored the fact that players still prefer traditional game model, as shown by the numbers stars are generating.

And for a good reason. How much innovation can there be to a basketball or chess? If you innovate the game just a touch too much you will surely destroy it.

Good stuff Joey. Good to see you back on the content grind. Happy for Ryan, kid's a legend.