Says the biggest douche on the felt

Hi Viffer

I respect that, thanks for the reply.

It seems obvious to me that poker needs more huge loserate players with cash to burn to remain beatable and that twich will not bring that kind of players.

But what's the point of this thread ? People here whine and try to predict the future but no one has yet proposed any kind of solution. The reason is there is nothing we can do about it (the games getting tougher) I mean trying to convince twitchers and training site to quit is obviously a lost cause... Trying to convince pokerstars to lower their rake as well. What else ? It's just inevitable that poker for a living will become more and more difficult, twitch or not. And most of us who went pro were aware that it couldnt be for the very long term anyway. I don't think any reasonable person ever thought he'd make poker his lifetime career.

I dont really play poker anymore and I also was one who never deposited any $ but cashedout "some" money out of the poker environment. Sorry world!

Now, to be serious. The real problem today is not twitch or any other kind of marketing. The problem is that new players dont have the chance to actually win as often as they should, so they actually get the feeling they have a chance winning at poker and keep depositing. But that will never change again, lets face it.
There wont be another pokerboom again, people have to understand that. It will not happen.
The edges will be smaller no matter what. The only parties who could change our current ecosystem are the sites. They should charge way less rake at smaller limits, so people will more often have the feeling they win at poker and keep depositing. If ppl take the game more serious, they will get the ressources (hud, trainingsites, etc.) no matter what.

The real problem is not twitch, as I said, its destroying the micros by masstabling badregs and taking too much rake. But that will destroy the bottomline of the sites, so there wont be a change

as always, tim is right

you people are ******s, for poker to survive you do not need fish, you just need people who play every day trying to beat each other...

Yes there will not be a bum hunter boom again, if you want to bum hunt go to some countries where they do not have internet and play in underground games.

it's all relative though. without some players who are, if not whales, bad enough that the hud using database sharing seat scripting bum hunting regulars are able to beat the rake, then there are no games.

theres a thing called rake.. and its the main reason for bumhunting.

Anyone that keeps using the words rake and bumhunter are most likely not very good at this poker thing.

I mean why spend time on your game doing sims and **** when you can complain on a forum about games being harder.

This.

This is all nonsense it doesn't matter how many resources there is out there the top 10% of poker players will succeed and the majority will fail, it is like this in most things in life where there is a small % of successful people in a group, you can put all the info in the world out there and only that top small % will excel stop complaining about games and keep improving yourself and be the top 10% or work as hard as possible to get into it.

its funny how stars reg with the lowest rake around always use rake as a scripting/massive bumhunting reason while regs on other sites are playing all regs tables with up to 2.2x the rake paid to not be stuck 2 tabling.

You keep stating this but not once have you ever come up with a shred of evidence that any site but iPoker (and that has much lower effective rake) has tougher fields than stars.

Don't see this as the 'final nail in the coffin'. I've started back playing some cash games and I'm a total fish. But I've deposited and having a go again mainly from watching some of the streams.

Only there's nothing to play in terms on NLHE. 0.01/0.02 and 0.02/0.05 full ring NLHE as
the games are full of players waiting for the nuts to bet (and something close to the nuts to even call). No completely new players are going to stay around for that. It's some what exploitable of course but to illustrate I got called down with the 2nd nuts yesterday after a guy had to tank call a 1/2 pot sized bet on the river to my over pair. There was obviously only one hand beating his hand and he used all his time bank to make a decision. That sort of caution is just death to any action in a game. No action, no new deposits after the original deposit.

~75% of the hands that make the flop are check, bet, call, check, check, bet, fold. Don't get me wrong it's fine if you can see how a hand is going to play out more often than not but all the sales gimics, sports stars and celebrities in the world won't hide the fact that online NLHE cash games are boring if you can't manage 6 or more tables from the off. The reality vs the sales pitch are going to be incredibly disappointing to new players.

Streams like these should help relatively new players get some grounding in what to expect when they start out which can only be a benefit really. Otherwise they'll take the bait to join up, see what's on offer, decide they've been duped and spend their deposit playing casino games (on of course Spin & Go's).

People worrying about the new guys going out and learning the game inside out because of the streams and become new grinders are missing who these streams will mostly attract - the likes of me who while enjoys poker but doesn't like to accept their limitations. The guys that are going to become grinders were likely to do so anyhow, with or without the streams.

What people should be worrying about it how a player with very few hands sits at a full ring table with 4 others and it instantly fills (and likewise breaks when he leaves). This is doing more damage to poker than these streams will ever manage.

I think people severely overestimate what your average player will do even if he has access to more information. Maybe 5% of all players will actually take the time to watch a twitch stream with the intention of learning and improving. Just like you can google "calculus" and learn all there is to know, very few people actually do this even though all the information is there for free, presented in an easy to understand format.


I agree, bumhunting and huge nits are the worst for the games. People are way tighter than they used to be, and will no longer always go with every top pair / overpair, and will actually folds sets and two pair on really wet runouts. This can be exploited so hard though so it's not like it makes the games unbeatable. Opponent folds to 70% of 3bets preflop? 3bet him with a 25% range and print money. You 3bet preflop and opponent is the type to call/call/fold hands like JJ on undercard runouts since he's afraid of AA/KK? Cool, bet/bet/bet your entire range and print money. Some reg keeps iso 3-betting the fish really wide? 4bet him to death and print money. The games are a lot different than they used to be. You can't just hit top pair or an overpair and get a stack every time. I suspect the games are pretty boring for fish since 90% of their opponents will be 16-tabling nits who use their entire time bank for every decision and never give action. The way I see it, the new fish are the bad regs and the actual whales are just a nice present fro time to time.

OP might as well say this site is bad for poker also

I just found about Twitch last week. This is amazing! Free poker information why would anyone now pay for a online poker trainning site now. It's just like free porn who pays for it these days?

Well said ElvanDalton.

+1

I've been playing this game for a long time, in many different venues, and I know a little bit about how poker works. And this is what I DO know: the more players that one can bring to the game, the better one's odds are going to be to cash with a profit. Period.

And, for those GTO'ers who think that the game will be solved....it wont...it will evolve, trust me. Poker didn't begin with NLHE and it's definitely not going to end with it either. My advice would be to try to evolve with the game and watch/start trends if you want to stay on top! Grind some lowball, some PLO...so many options and there'll be more....promise! Poker isn't Texas Hold 'em...Texas Hold 'em is poker! And poker's been around for a long time, with all its variations.

I'd love to have me a group of young ego-driven youngsters come into my UG club thinking they know how to grind....the more, the better. Bring it and bring your BR with you.

+1

I've been playing this game for a long time, in many different venues, and I know a little bit about how poker works. And this is what I DO know: the more players that one can bring to the game, the better one's odds are going to be to cash with a profit. Period.

And, for those GTO'ers who think that the game will be solved....it wont...it will evolve, trust me. Poker didn't begin with NLHE and it's definitely not going to end with it either. My advice would be to try to evolve with the game and watch/start trends if you want to stay on top! Grind some lowball, some PLO...so many options and there'll be more....promise! Poker isn't Texas Hold 'em...Texas Hold 'em is poker! And poker's been around for a long time, with all its variations.

I'd love to have me a group of young ego-driven youngsters come into my UG club thinking they know how to grind....the more, the better. Bring it and bring your BR with you.

Believe me teh group of youngsters would love to come to your club as well given teh stakes are right and they gonna bring their bankrolls and gonna leave with yours...

Gg

[spoiler]kind rgds from teh TimStone[/spoiler]

Excuse me if this has already been said because I haven't read the thread (grunching) but have you actually seen the content that goes up on Twitch? It's ridiculous. So many terrible plays and logic. Sure, the worst of the worst will get better, but that's about it. Of course, I haven't see all of the streamers, but from what I have seen, it's a bunch of tournament luckboxes clicking buttons on cash tables, or some rec player firing away in a donkament. If it's bad for poker, it's because the people streaming are lacking big success that draws in the casual wannabe dream chaser, and instead viewers see a negative number or a small number for amount of money won on the year or day which could turn them off of poker.

I think streamers should inflate their numbers to help poker. Put total money cashed if you're a tournament streamer, not net profit/loss. Think of how much less popular tournaments would be if HendonMob tracked entries, and you saw these accounts with $2,000,000 in earnings and rec players are in awe until they look over and see $1,800,000 in entry fees.

I think the only way Twitch is bad for poker is if the streamers aren't either 1. Having a lot of visible fun and making some money 2. Having lots of success.

Twitch won't do anything bad to poker, the players that improve would be improving anyway and the rest who aren't interested in improving will stay at the same skill level. The top pros say they still have a lot to learn about the game so how can any of you say the level you play at is going to be impossible to beat, in reality you're not good enough at the game.

Is there a way to watch archived twitch feeds that are like a few days old when the streamer is not live?