Was quite surprised when saw him getting that 1,5k viewers so this makes sense. Asked him about this in the chat and got banned instantly. Makes allso sense. Even if I shouldn't care it's just sad that one can't accept you aint that entertaining or good to make it to the top without 'cheating'.

Why wouldn't you bot? If people are just mindlessly watching **** because it's at the top of a list what does that say about people? Is it wrong to bot?

Yes I am.

No, I'm not.


--
Kahn

Well my 2cents twich tos says no to botting so that's why. And nobody really knows how many people are mindlessly watching that.

given you do get a lot more exposure by cheating your way there instead of working hard to build yourself a fanbase from the bottom, it is "wrong"

it's like if someone paid to have an ad during the superbowl but someone else figured out a way to hack into the network and have his own ad bump the other guy who has paid for it, does that make sense?

Fayth,

It would be fair to say my tone was a little harsh. Your explanation was satisfactory and my overall understanding of viewbotting was not based in sound logic. Instead of arguing about this further, I'd like to admit that I was wrong, offer my thanks for furthering my overall comprehension of the twitch community. Kind regards.

Tarantula G

People defending viewbots ITT. ****ing morons.

Does seem a little out of character for Gripsed but I've seen better fall victim to temptation.

I'm embarrassed that I've been an avid Twitch viewer for years (very little poker) and it never occurred to me how useful having viewbots would be. Being highly ranked in viewer counts is probably the No. 1 way to attract more viewers.

lol what?

come on this is pretty bad if true

Gripsed does come off kind of scammy with his training programs,etc he is trying to peddle. I've never heard of him or his site until recently. Apparently he actually has some results so maybe he is legit.

The 2+2 detective agency might want to have a look at viewer counts on his YouTube videos, they don't appear to follow the pattern of what one would expect from somebody with a popular YouTube channel i.e 55k subscribers, but some videos have only got 800 views, where as others 35k viewers for similar sounding instructional videos that have been up for some time.

Also, 55k subs, I think in general people get somebody between 10% and 20% of sub count in terms of views, not over 50%. And they will get a fairly consistent range of views when they are putting up similar content.

In comparison, Jamie Staples only have 15k subs, and his videos get 2-3k views and there seems a much more consistent in terms of viewership. Same with Felix Schneiders, 12k subs, 1-2k views per video.

Should note not talking about the auto play home page videos here, which obviously gets basically 1 view for every sub.

Long after he was done playing today while showing only his twitter page he had 1200 viewers so the view botting seems pretty obvious. I have requested that his stream gets blocked from the 2+2 list.

I'd like to bring everyone's attention here to the following thread - https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comme...aud_on_twitch/

Thank me later.

^^ Thank you for linking everyone to the thread that is linked to twice in the OP?

Hey all,

I'm going to try and shed some light on this situation as an insider to the space.

1st i'd like the opportunity to clear my name of this post.

BTC Blade is a Twitch/2+2/life Troll that has been banned from Twitch three times. He accused me of viewbotting almost a year ago today in here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...88/index2.html

You can see my responses:
Here:http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=191
and Here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=200

You can see BTC Blade was the actual one using Viewbots: http://i.imgur.com/44jKRIv.png . Feb 16th, 2015. (he did all the time when he used to stream back when 500 would get you top spot in the listing without JCarver and Myself.) He also is this guy: http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/...ud-use-591752/

So hopefully that clears that up. If you have any other questions see these graphs of viewers here: https://socialblade.com/twitch/user/...taples/monthly

As you can see my followers:
and my Views:

are both very linear. The few bumps in the graph on views are 1st a reporting error (3 days data reported in one day), 2nd Front page time, 3rd SCOOP 2015

Also you can compare Myself and Jason Somerville if you would like and see the linear nature of my graph

Viewers:
Followers:

Last of all use this resource here to check individual broadcasts and/or the last 437 days of average viewer numbers. The one fairly large increase there is again 10 hour streams 15 days in a row during SCOOP: http://www.twinge.tv/pokerstaples/growth/#/437

This is a very very serious accusation! I have had sponsors in the past where payment was correlated with amount of time watched. Using a viewbot is blatantly stealing not just from those companies but also from other streamers who have put in the work. I have never, and will never do that.

_________________________________________________

On to Gripsed channel:

Why is this serious?

I have suspected a viewbot on Gripsed since he got back on to twitch after the Bahamas. This is the absolute worst thing a streamer can do to a community. Being listed 2-4th behind Somerville, Myself and/or Tonka when 15/20 other streamers have been busting their ass every week for months is so unfair and brutal. I know the work that goes into getting a viewership.

Both my roomates Kevin Martin and Matt Staples are putting in 80+ hour work weeks every week to try and keep growing and make streaming a viable career for them. This is not just on camera time, but off camera time as well.

How do we know it's a view-bot?

The graphs make it very clear.

Take for example my stream today:


See how the beginning of the broadcast is fairly slowly linear and there is no unexplained stop offs in growth or unexplained jump ups (these can happen more on that later.) Their are little blips for tournament breaks where I play ads, A blip where I eat lunch, and a clear drop off after I bust the million.

Here is one of Gripsed graphs from this week:


There is a sudden surge of viewers where it sky rockets to 1500 within an hour and then the rate of growth immediately slows to around 80 people an hour.

The thing that doesn't make this possible barring few exceptions (again get to that later) is that this is the very beginning of the broadcast. This is pre ante, early stage, no deep run poker. There is no reason why this amount of viewers should be showing up immediately. Fan bases aren't that polarized for anyone. 25/50 blinds with 150BB in a homegame on 888 is not going to bring in 1000 viewers in an hour!

The most damning graph is this one showing average viewers throughout the life of Gripsed channel:


That graph is the span of 437 days of his channel. See the end where there is a flat line? That is 29 days off in a row. Following taking a whole month off where a community will generally lose lots of strength (speaking from experience) his average viewership has risen in the last 6 days by 180 people without any deep runs! This is simply impossible. Especially when you compare those numbers to someone like Kevin Martin who has more followers then Gripsed, a bigger social audience then gripsed, and interacts more in the greater twitch community then gripsed and never gets those numbers while streaming peak time while the current biggest three are active. I know 2+2 correlates success on Twitch to strength as a poker player. That plays a small part but not this big of one this fast.

It is definitely definitely a viewbot!

A quick note on graphs and chatters:

- Graphs can have weird spikes in them when there is a logical reason for it. Example would be front page promotion from Twitch where you are on the front page of the whole website. Second is from another streamer hosting or raiding you. This will cause some irregular things. That is not whats happening with the last 8 days graphs however just a general note.

- Chatters can depend a lot on the nature of the streamer. Fo example, my chat can get reeeallly dead sometimes (especially during peak MTT poker time). I have wondered why that is but I think I have an answer. Most of the players that are watching my stream are already poker players. I have maybe 20% of my audience that is brand new to poker and actually not playing a bunch of tables while listening in on the side. This could cause some big irregularities in the amount of chat activity. You take a guy like Jason Somerville and you will see his chat is always popping. Why? He is engaging of course (the best at this) but also the majority of his viewers are very new poker players. I dont think the chat activity argument is the best for detecting a viewbot just a note.

So what happens now?

Well not a whole lot. There are some big issues.

There is no proof who is putting on the viewbot. Twitch can't ban a channel because a wealthy troll decides to pay some money to ruin a guys career. There is no proof of who is doing it so there is nothing that Twitch can do to stop this. There is a possibility that Gripsed has no control of this and it is just happening.

My question is why has he not talked to anyone in the Twitch poker Skype group, or mentioned it to Twitch employees, or shown any signs of being concerned about him having 1000 additional unexplained viewers daily?

What IS happening is it is coming to light within the community of streamers and viewers which will do damage on Twitch.

I have to say personally I think he is guilty of putting on a viewbot. I have no proof other then the graphs and logic of why would anyone target this guy by spending money to viewbot him? Also there is a history of him coming in my chat in the past and marketing himself in scummy ways (e.g. "hey guys I'm streaming live now too! Come check it out: twitch.tv/gripsed") Donating while we are both streaming to get his name out there, try and get a host, etc.

I have spent maybe 40 face to face hours with Gripsed. I hung out with him in Vegas a few nights, spent a few hours with him at Twitch con, and several hours talking on Skype. I want to think this is all a mistake or troll but I'm having a hard time getting to that point. It doesn't add up.

__________________________________________________ __

Open to any/all questions about Twitch, viewbots, the community, Twitch's responses in these situations, etc.

Jaime
"pokerstaples"

This correlation doesn't work because Gripsed youtube has been active for several years. People move on from poker, abandon their account, stop watching but don't unsubscribe, etc. I don't think there is anything shady going on with him on Youtube based on his subs, view numbers, and social media activity.

Yes they do it is prohibited.

Basically people are much more likely to watch streams where a ton of people are there then one where no one is there. I almost always choose top stream when I go to a game listing. It is a way to get a higher percentage of the first time viewers to their stream. Also you grab a higher percentage of people that scan the listing and see one of their 10 regular streams at the top. In certain sponsorship situations is can also correlate to inflating your numbers to get paid more either directly, or through negotiating better deals off false numbers.

I appreciate it that Jaime, I am the one who created the thread on reddit. It's FTHustla420. Getting your point of view is invaluable here, because people are now gonna look at this deeper than just an unwarranted allegation brought up from outta nowhere. Good luck brotha. Pulling for ya from afar. Cheers.

Really well thought out and overall educational post by Jaime. We have talked about this in the past and he puts it better than I ever could. Nice post.

Also very unfortunate for Gripsed if this is someone else doing this, but just seems incredibly unlikely that it is the case.

If someone else was doing it, pardon my LOL, but if that were the case, he wouldn't let it continue to go down without bringing it up. So lets just forget that is a possibility, like ever. He did throw you a host however, 500 viewbots, i'd be blushing. Then he comes in there like john wayne giving shout outs. FFS. Big fan parker, ya ma boi blu

Twitch poker streamers should stop promoting gripsed immediately (he's a scummy turd ) if he continues to tip while you have viewers don't acknowledge / cut all ties to his stream ( no buddy buddy ) it gives the wrong impression to the innocent twitch poker viewer .

Further posts after the OP make a more compelling case than was initially given. From those it does appear more likely than not that he is view botting.

I've no sympathy at all for the sponsors that have been misled. Advertising is the worst part of twitch as a viewer. While mitigating steps can be taken you still have to put up with people advertising under their stream, on screen (Noticed xflixx's on screen advertising is a lot more blatant recently) or by using a HUD they have been paid to shill. Don't get me wrong, they have a right to do these things, I just hate it.

This thread, or at least some of the significant posts contained within, appear to have been orchestrated somewhat and I simply don't buy the concern for smaller streamers expressed by some of the larger ones. They are concerned by their own market share, naturally.

When it's all said and done, how far does this push Gripsed up in the rankings? Before he was getting maybe 300-400 viewers? Now he has an additional 1-2k? Doesn't 300-400 get you up to the first line of streams in any case (Obv people watch on different sized screens but I mean in the top 5-7 streams or so).

When everyone is streaming, Sunday's for instance, are the smaller streamers not basically pushed out in any case? Albeit more naturally? If a $/£/€ figure had to be put on this, how much has he stolen? How many viewers has he actually taken from the micro streamers who seem to have no shot at success regardless?

I will unfollow when I get home as I still think it is wrong. It's just not the most heinous thing that poker players/streamers have done IMO.

bhoy -

you don't have to feel sympathy for anyone but saying essentially you dont care/they deserve it because "they are annoyingly" is not a strong point. you seem to enjoy watching streams for whatever reason, realise that most streams are financially incentivised and advertising is part of that. yes advertising is annoying but it is part of what fuels what you are experiencing.
there's no reason they deserve to be scammed, they are not doing anything unethical or illegal.

the other streamers obviously care about their market share, but they are also completely right here. what's being alleged is not only wrong, but very unfair for people who are doing it honestly. it's blatant cheating/stealing from other twitch streamers and advertisers/sponsors. if you complained about others super-using, would be ridic for ppl to come and say you just care about your own bottom line.

dunno specific numbers of how much he gained but it's not the point, it's very malicious (even if not all consequences are thought thoroughly through). and could have gotten worse if it weren't for it being called out.

yes it's not the worst thing poker players ever did but it's still bad. saying something is bad but downplaying since there are worse things out is also not a particularly valid point.

I have not been a streamer nor do I actively watch any streams or have any financial interest in of the streams

bhoy - in terms of streamer advertising, promoting or using a product that they are ultimately getting paid to use. This is just super standard in normal tv and movies these days, where product placement by companies can be extremely valuable. If you see a branded item in a tv show, it is normally because the brand have paid for it to be there.

Unlike twitch, it is basically impossible for production companies or tv channels to fiddle the viewership numbers as they are all collated independently.

However, in the world of new media, there is a whole market for fake twitter followers, fake youtube views, facebook friends and now twitch viewers. It is totally unethical to take money based upon those figures if they have been bought rather than real eyeballs.

The whole viewbot thing reminds me a bit of what used to happen with the "singles" charts for music. At one point it was a fairly common practice for management to buy up huge numbers of copies of their bands latest track to get it boosted into the Top x Chart. There by getting more airplay and getting the band more exposure with interviews, where they could upsell albums, tours and gain sponorships etc etc etc.

Having no sympathy for advertisers is not an endorsement of what Gripsed is alleged to have done. And I don't think that I said they deserved it. I just don't particularly care. If advertisers came up with content that was any way original or enjoyable then my view on that might change. Presumably the products that he himself actively advertised,nth ouch I couldn't tell you what those would be, they surely have recourse to either claim the money back or withhold it if not already paid.

I said that it was unfair on smaller streamers but also made the point that it likely isn't this issue that is the reason they are a small stream. I'd say the number of people disadvantaged in any real way is in low single figures. The smaller streams are generally small because they just aren't that interesting to people. They came late to the party. Their brand is already catered for.

Aside from unfollowing the guy I don't see what else I can do as someone that occasionally watched.

I respect this guy Jaime for what he did.

Gripsed is all about branding and selling products. So while on face value who cares about a few fake followers and viewers but unfortunately it is a lot deeper than that. Having followers and viewers give you credibility and in turn it gives your products and coaching credibility. Also he is taking away sponsorship dollars from other Legit streamers both directly and indirectly.

With probably 2 of the top 3 streamers in this thread confirming, everyone should take it seriously.