How much value do you think you get out of Sky Golem? Obviously it's the next best 6 drop for this deck after Sylvanas. I tried it for a while but just struggled to get value out of it. I think part of the problem is that the list of 4 drops is so vast and so Battlecry dependent where I'd rarely get good value out of that part of it. Whereas shredder often at least gives you a 3/2 or 2/3 worth of stats, I feel like there's more variance in the Sky Golem after drop.

Go through the list of all 4 drops and try to figure out which has yeti+ stats. I think that's what we're looking for in most cases. Take into consideration any charge/deathrattle i guess?

Solemn Vigil is def worth it to include in a midrange deck IMO. I feel like the biggest struggle matchups I had were longer matches where I would just run out of cards too fast. With that card, you can play around it to fit your mana constraints, 2 cards is usually all you need to survive a long match (plus LOH), and I find that mana efficiency wise I usually get good value out of it.

I'm still hanging around Ranks 3-5 maining this deck. I think my biggest problem revolves around my play with Sylvanas. I feel like I play it too often to an empty board on 6 (likely cause it's my only 6-drop) without predicting their next play and how I'm going to put Sylvanas to use.

If I stop seeing so many aggro decks, I might test out putting in a Boulderfist Ogre for my Defender of Argus. I kinda feel like Boulderfist should be more popular in a meta where a ton of the popular 5/6 drops are the 5/5 specialty minions. And I feel like I often drop my DoA for no good reason, just because it fits my curve and puts out 4/5 of stats with 2 taunts.

defender of argus will get your boulderfist bghed

I'm saying drop DoA from my deck and replace it with a Boulderfist, not drop DoA onto the board with a Boulderfist.

If you want a fighting unit on the 6 spot, use a piloted sky golem. it's flatout better than ogre

Yeah the power creep in this game is such that a card like Boulderfist will probably never be played in constructed beyond basic decks unless they introduce an Ogre tribe at some point.

Teched my deck heavy for anti-aggro. Still kept the one chow, but took out Sky Golem for DoA and my last tech card (was Faceless Manipulator for a while, before that it was Kel'Thuzad) for a Dread Corsair. Dread Corsair works quite well against aggro decks. Obviously dependent on having a Truesilver for the full value, but when you do, being able to play a Truesilver plus a 3/3 taunt on Turn 4 is a pretty huge swing.

In this meta I think DoA is almost a must have in every Pally deck.

Also, I followed Bobbo's advice (I think in the main thread) and ditched QM. It's just not a good card in an aggro meta and I can find much better value elsewhere. I need to trade off my 1/1's from Muster far too often to get full value out of QM. It fits in a control heavy meta where it's conceivable that I can go something like Muster > Coin/QM but it's very unlikely currently.

are you using doa as a late game card? how often are you taunting SHRs?

Not that often, but if my board is against an aggro deck, I'll throw it out on a SHR and a Minibot or Aldor, or I can just do it on 2 SHR's. The 4/5 of stats plus 2 taunts is pretty worth the play. Mostly I just like it for the versatility. I can use it to protect against aggro decks, protect big minions, set up big taunts, or just give me efficient stats, and it's helped me put 2 more damage on board to get lethal

I still can't figure out what a SHR is

anyway in my experience 1 defender is great, 2 is clunky.

some cards really are best served as 1-offs

the main problem with argus, and obv paladin suffers less from this than other classes, but is that it's a situational card. its not good having too many situational cards in a deck - you cant plunk it down on 4 by its lonesome, and although it's fine / oftentimes right taunting up just 1 thing, it loses a lot of value by doing so

ok, i was just informed a SHR is a silverhand recruit. nice acronyms

in a typical midrange deck (hunter is the best example, but paladin imitates that deck too in an odd way, druid combo follows the same theory) is you want several turn 2, 3, 4, and then 5 plays that are good by their lonesome.

so in a standard midrange shell regardless of class you basically see knife jugglers and/or creepers (best common 2 slot), shredders (best 4), and sludges (best 5), with the best class 3 drop (animal companion for hunters, druids use shades, and its why paladin can get fancy with more 3 drop techs with 1 MCT for example) in the middle

a little further about the 4 drop in paladin:
-double consecrate is a staple (it's a must, the aoe is so good as is the pairing combos especially with equality for a board clear obv)
-most use double truesilvers, ive gone back and forth between 0, 1, and 2 (when i drop them i go 2 coghammers) but regardless this will be a near-basic deck staple
-shredders, as i noted, are musts

so thats 6 4s already. you have room for a little more, but 2 defenders means you are playing 8 4 cost cards, and only 2 of them can actually be played on curve. if you ever want to play a kezan (reasonable in most metas), or use cult master as your card engine, or even spice things up and try a dark iron dwarf (ive done it, it works well in pally) or use dragons (with a hungry dragon) your deck will often curve out weirdly/sub-optimally

now, there is no such thing as a perfect curve, but there are ideal curves. ive played a lot of paladin (this month its what took me to legend, its worth mentioning) and ive tried a lot of curves, and what ive found to be the purest midrange is:

1: typically a chow, if you really are only facing absolute filth play double chow, meta hasn't been right for 0 chows in a while

2: would never play fewer than 6, never more than 8. the requirements are the minibots, the flex spot is basically creepers (if you're playing a token based midrange), pyros (if you're looking for more control), jugglers (my pick for best slot) or ~sunfury (if you're looking for pure turtle), then you play 1 or 2 equality, and tech in an owl if silence is good (right now, with SO many warlocks, playing 2 silence is actually reasonable)

3: double muster, double aldor, bgh. that's 5. those are basically requirements, no wiggle room there. i would have those 5 always, but i wouldn't have more than 7. the other techs you could consider would be something like a deathlord (anti aggro), a mct (fine tech spot, good vs all the warlock), an ERF (if you're looking for more of a healadin), acolyte of pain (if you want more card draw, or if you're using a blessing of king as there are a lot of combos that work with paladin) and the coghammers (depends on whether you have them / if you like them, i personally love them, but it's a judgment call since you dont want too many weapons)

*about weapons, if you play 2 musters, tirion, you basically absolutely cannot have 2 truesilvers AND 2 coghammers. even having 3 among them is clunky (although ive seen a lot of people run double truesilver and 1 cog, im not a fan) my advice is pick whichever you prefer, and make a judgment call on curve for what 3s or 4s you prefer to smooth things out. if you play greenskin (very good in paladin, actually) maybe play 3 weapons among them to insure value.

4: the mvp slot of a paladin deck, I would never have more than 8 (even 8 is too many) so once again looking at 6-8. The shredders and consecrates are mandatory, so judgment call on truesilvers (vs cogs, or just playing 1) then the aforementioned arguses, (possibly senjin if going turtle route), cult master (card draw route), dark iron (token route), blessing of kings (buff route), hammer of wrath (control route if you're using pyros, they gain value)

5: I love 5 drops. Paladin unfortunately has a lot of good ones too, so it takes away. I'd have 3 minimum (prob 4) but no more than 6. The reason this is clunky is you have a decision between 0, 1, or 2 QMs, 1 or 2 belchers, then the various techs: Greenskin, Harrison (so good right now), Loatheb (always amazing), Kodo (old school control), Azure Drake (atually really good with consecrate, given it deals with Grim Patrons, plus helps in card draw), healbot (1 is almost required given all the cancer). Unless you're buiding a dragodin (not even a good paladin skin) id totally forget about the 5/5 dragon, its just not that good, sadly.

6: Always have at least 1, can't have more than 3. The contenders here are obvious: Slyvanas is generally #1, Sky Golem (1, prob not 2) works better if you're playing Kel Thuzzad (and want a more aggressive mid range), Emperor (if you have a lot of card draw, like using the acolyte and a cult master or w/e, can get value), TBK (reasonable in the meta, albeit not great), avenging wrath (have had great experiences with this card, if you play double equality you should squeeze it in for another board clear)

7: Boom always, nothing else.

8+: Tirion is mandatory (unless you don't have him, but if you dont, get enough dust to get him, he's so good!!!) and then a judgment call if you need the card draw for LOH, and if you can fit other late game legendaries in (I normalyl can squeeze 1, who rotates) the decision is Kel Thuzzad (good in paladin), Sneeds (also good in paladin), and so on (between any other late game bomb)

**Also, I've TRIED turtle paladin/super control paladin, with a curve pushed to the right, and my experience is the deck is reasonable, but not as strong as the pure midrange. the problem of course is the rush decks are rushier, you equalize less often, and it doesnt even play as a total control style. the beauty of a midrange paladin is its so flexible, it truly can be super aggressive or super long game.

So there you have it.

in summary:

0-1
6-8
5-7
6-8
3-5
1-3
1
1+

Someone commented to me in-game (Robik?) complaining about card draw for paladin, if you only use 1 LOH for draw (what I typically do) you basically just play to curve and lean on that card vs the full control matchups. Other than that if you start hanging low on cards making little bros utilizes the ~2nd best hero power in the game (warlock being #1, hunter maybe 2) always puts stats on the board, works well. a lot of times you should chop up your curve to prioritize a bro - if you combine stats a 3 drop (lets say mct) with a dude is almost equal to a loatheb, so sometimes thats better.

key tenet of paladin really is adapting to your opponents deck and assuming the opposite role. vs hunter, you are the control. vs warrior, you are the aggro. etc.

Random thoughts on cards I didn't mention:

Paladin Secrets By themselves, they aren't terrible. The problem is paladins don't have a ton of cycle, so they are really weak. A 1 mana spell typically is either removal (like a rockbiter for shaman) or a tempo play. The problem with secrets, obv, is they are a tempo loss as well. (You don't gain any advantage until the NEXT turn, if even then). plus, in a hunter/mage heavy meta, you actually run into kezans into constructed which is a huge swing (not in your favor ) if i tried a cancer deck with scientists, avenge could be worthwhile. In a control deck, months ago I toyed with 1 redemption, given you have a lot of good redemption targets. (Esp if you're taunt heavy) The only problem is redemption works at odds with little bros, and if you're playing a class that can pluck them off, you can either not hero power (bad) or lose all value from a card (it becomes an overpriced wisp!) Noble sacrifice is bad because it doesn't trade evenly; it CAN take out a 2 drop, but a lot of times it absorbs a weapon charge (bad), or just saves a tiny bit of damage and inflicts splash damage on a 1 or 2 drop (like chow or mech warper) eye for an eye is one of the worst cards in the game, and repentance is a late game card for 1 mana and only good vs control. (It's actually a misunderstood secret and actually not that bad, but only in a very heavy meta)

All the cheapo buff cards: The cancer paladin decks play them, in a midrange+ they dont do enough for a card. Hand of protection is not as good as argent, which is too situational in constructed anyway.

All the cheapo heal cards: Holy light/seal of light both synergize with pyro, if you're going that route, and there are healdin shells which aren't that bad. But both cards are weak, and if you're looking for more heals typically a GoK is better than Holy Light, as it's a 5/6 body combined with the heal (the do 2 things for 1 cards are almost unanimously better than the do 1 thing for 1 card). GoK isn't as good as healbot though.

Sword of Justice: It's a massive tempo loss card. It seems great: 5/5 of stats for 3 mana. But it's slow, loses horribly to a weapon removal, and isn't really good removal on its own. (Along the same vein, should've mentioned Light's Justice. I love it in arena, but muster is a million times better, since you get 3 little bros for the cost of 2 mana. It actually would be maybe playable in the right meta for early removal vs hunter or w/e but given muster is a card it's just outclassed)

Scarlet Purifier: Man, I was so hyped when this card came out. I thought it would be the greatest counter to the heavy deathrattle decks (thanks to Undertaker). But... 1. UT got nerfed hard, so those decks/that archetype just doesn't exist anymore (if it does, it's significantly weaker) and 2. 2 damage to deathrattle stuff isn't actually that good. A lot of the common deathrattles have more health than that - shredders have 3, belchers have 5, chows have 3, creepers still leave behind the 1/1s, harvest golems have 3, yetis have 5, slyvanas has 5. A 4/3 body is completely different (and worse) vs a 3/4 body, as well. This card just dies to the leftover 1/1 plus abusive (vs zoo, for example), trades down to the jugglers of the world, and 4 attack isn't needed when you haev truesilvers (and a lot of stuff played after, like your 3 play into turn 4, is a shreder which only has 3 health anyway)

If bliz pumps out more deathrattle which has 2 health this card could be redeemed and played, but as of now, it is not playable.

Holy Wrath: Too expensive, even in a total right shifted curve it's an inconsistent RNG card. Hammers are rarely played, and this card typically is a bit worse (and reveals some minor information to your opponent!) I've seen a video of Kripp playing a Holy Wrath paladin deck, but here's the cold hard truth: Kripp is not good at constructed. His decks typically range from interesting but mediocre to completely awful. The last time I followed a template of his I thought was cool, it led to a major losing streak.

The niche 5s: Bolvar is a silence target and too situational (having to hold it) PLUS doesn't do anything immediately. It's not a taunt so doesn't help vs aggro, it's not even a corruptor if you're plying a dragon deck to utilize removal, it's not like loatheb/greeny/harrison which provide immediate value, it's not a drake or kodo which draw a card or removes something, etc etc. The consort has a home in a dragon paladin deck but dragon paladin just isn't a thing. Cobolt Guardian isn't playable in a mech deck, isn't playable even if it was 4 mana. Such is life as a Hemet Nesingwary 6/3!

GoK, I mentioned just isn't that good. It's overcosted is the problem. If youre trying to stabilize vs aggro, typically taunts work better than the life gain. A 5/6 for 7 is slow vs control (or midrange) decks. It's not that bad though, and given it's a basic card, if you dont have more attractive options he's a fine late-ish card to add. (On asia, where I don't have most of the cards, I use 2 of them as most of my late game)

Awesome summary of the class. Couldn't of said it better myself. I'm with you on KT too. That card has been SOOOO good lately.

Unfortunately, Ive only had 1 long day to play this month, and it was a sick day from work, haha (rest of the month ive been able to play an hour here and there....so busy with work) and I still have a chance to hit legend this month being at rank 4 cuz my winrate has been strong with paladin. I'm even running Troggzor instead of boom and loving it.

Btw, CONGRATS on hitting legend with Pally again would you mind posting your final deck list you used?

In picture form...



A basic midrange deck that should be very strong even without Boom or Tirion, utilizes a bit of Naxx, only epic is 1 QM.

=)

Sure thing:



Deck is just strong. 17-8 with this specific version for the final stretch run from rank 2.

good stuff bobbo, excited to tinker with my deck now :>

also are chows a must have for a midrange deck at the top ranks?

only if its golden

seriously though, there is just too much flamewaker mage, zoo, and face hunter to not run a chow. helps so much in those matchups. over my past 100ish games, about 20% hunter, 20% warlock, and 15% mage. thats a lot!!

also, only 2 rogues. meta is pretty great for pally - anytime there arent too many rogues, paladin is really strong

Running this list with 3 changes.

-MTC
-Sky Golem
-Kel'Thuzad

+DoA
+Captain Greenskin
+Ragnaros

I've just never found Sky Golem to be all that useful, and I feel like with the glut of 4 drops in the Paladin deck, not having a lot of 6 drops is fine, as 4 drop + Hero Power is usually pretty strong.

I'm like 12-1 vs. Hunter with this variant, just crushing that class. Warrior is def my weakest matchup, both variants. The lack of QM just leaves me without enough burst to get through Control Warrior.

I love Greeny so no complaints there. Also a fan of Argus, it's sometimes in there, so no complaints. MTC has been hitting a lot so I like that but to each his own.

The sky golem is just a sticky battle minion. Has some synergy and basically just have tried it instead of Slyvanas, and lately its been fine. Not sure if its BETTER.

But Rag... I dunno, if decks were 40 cards I still wouldn't put him in. He just basically doesn't do what I want ever. The only deck thats a good thing is hunter, for me anyway. I suppose it's nice having a 2nd BGH target but a lot of times Rag kills something small on the battlefield and gets removed.

outside decks with a lot of BGH targets (for me, handlock and control warrior) im not a fan

I put Rag in because I felt like my biggest problem in the Paladin deck was just finding lethal in long-ish matches where I held control the entire way but wasn't really able to close it out. I feel like Rag helps me so much in those spots where I can do something like Equality >> clear >> Rag for 8 damage to the face. It is also not a bad YOLO option when I'm behind in a longer game and they have 1 big minion to kill or sub 8 health.

Maybe it's just me running better on finding Rag targets, but I've found him pretty useful so far.

alright bobbo im gonna use that exact deck for a while and see what happens