Just did a quick scan of the thread and I'm surprised no one called for a nerfing of Blade Flurry. It's a ridiculously broken card now that Oil Rogue in is in there. Hearthstone game designers have stated in the past how they don't like OTK's, well BF is an insane OTK card. Not only does it deal with the board but the damage also goes to the face. That was fine and good when all they had was deadly poison but the oil makes it ridiculous.

Imagine if Flamestrike also went to the face, well oil + flurry is the same thing but much worse when it's combo'ed.

Nerf Blade Flurry. Thank you.

I think Blade Flurry isn't the problem, really. It's Oil that makes the deck/combo.

I'm not complaining given it's the deck I play most right now, but I think the card is properly balanced considering you *NEED* other stuff (spell damage, poison, etc.) to make it actually impactful.

Blade Flurry is the engine, Tinkers Oil is the enabler. Generally, in most of these sorts of card interactions, the engine is the problem, because it limits the designers ability to introduce other cards that might act as an enabler. By the way, the reason I characterize Flurry as "the engine" and the Oil as "the enabler" is that Oil adds a linear buff to a weapon, wheres the Flurry gives a multiplicative effect.

but prior to oil literally no one ever complained about flury.

It's not counter to my thesis to point out that a multiplicative effect seems fine when there is only one card that works with it, because under those conditions, it is effectively linear. When there is only one card that is an enabler, an engine will often seem fine. Now that we have Deadly, Barber, and Oil, the cracks in the design space start to become visible.

Honestly, at least Oil Rogue interacts with the board.

Tired of running into player after player effectively playing solitaire with face hunter.

Couldn't even say which card in hunter I would nerf, I just think the aggro decks in Hearthstone should require at least some interaction.

Not pointing to any post in particular but it seems there are too many "oh I got rekt by x, it should be nerfed" posts in here. I really feel like 99percent of these cards are balanced.

a card can be balanced and still bad for the game

Nerfing Hunter cards is a stopgap solution to the real problem, which is the Hunter hero power. Throughout Hearthstone's first year they've made 8 nerfs and 6 of them have been done in at least some part to negate Hunter decks that had become overpowered (Undertaker, Bow, Flare, Leeroy, Unleash, Buzzard). Yet after the initial phase of Hunter's disappearing for a bit because nobody had the correct decklist anymore, it's always popped back up with a new version just as strong.

The actual issue is that cheap and efficient minions, along with direct damage and a constant stream of damage from the hero power, is always going to be a very difficult combination to beat. It's the only hero power in the game that puts a real clock on your opponent. It doesn't solve the problem to just nerf the main efficient minion at the time because they'll just replace it with another one. There is a long list of efficient minions, and that list is only going to continue to grow as more cards are released.


I think there are exactly three things that actually need to be nerfed in Hearthstone. First, Dr. Boom bots should deal 1-2 damage instead of 1-4. Second, the Hunter hero power needs to be changed. What that solution is, I'm unsure exactly. Maybe you give it a chance to miss (which fits in flavor wise for someone shooting a bow at the opponent). Maybe you change it entirely. I think it just needs to be changed somehow though for reasons given above. Finally, BGH needs to hit creatures at 8 power or more. The goal of it was to combat early Giants, which is cool, but it really makes it difficult to play a lot of fun new minions with it existing. I'd love to play neptulon for instance. Or mech bear cat. Alas. Changing it to 8 still let's you handle the giants but also lets us play other large minions that are otherwise entirely fair and fun.

I think Jim Halpert's posting is sublime and perfect.

Every nerf targeted at hunter ignores the real issue, which is their hero power is simply the best in the game.

~~

Also, I do enjoy a hearty chuckle at people complaining about ONE specific card or deck. Every deck (and ~card) has a very hard counter to it. Dont like face hunter? Play as warrior, and tech early game. I guarantee you will have a 90% win rate vs face hunter!

I agree with everything Jim said about hunter, the rest I don't really agree with. Dr. Boom's 'overwhelming strength' is highly exaggerated imo. The real issue with Dr. Boom is that the pool of legendaries in general is so weak. Legendaries should be stronger in general and in my opinion should be closer to Boom's strength to cost ratio than most others are. I mean, look at the ridiculous list of class legendaries. 3 are strong and only 2 are used consistently.

BGH makes people sad cuz they want to just drop some big guy and say 'gg' but isn't even close to over powered imo. When you sit on a 3 cost card for 7 turns waiting for a target it's disruptive to your tempo and board development, the trade off is that you have a way to answer a threat dropped on turn 7 easily which would otherwise have cost you the game. Classes like Paladin and shaman just have no other way to deal with threats like Boom and Rag short of dumping their entire boards into them and I see plenty of rags, booms and Neptulon's out there which seem to counter the idea that people just won't use newer cards with >7 power b/c of bgh.

i would argue that if one heropower need changing its propably the warlock

boom is clearly broken it would be played as a 8 mana card

Blade flurry and/or Oil really isn't a problem (okay, maybe flurry should cost 3 and/or not hit face), but prep-sprint is also a large part of the reason why Oil-rogue is so strong. How many times are you winning the game and then they go prep-sprint and you just lose?

If I were to nerf anyone of those 4 cards, I would make it be sprint, and make it 8 mana.

Also Dr. boom, Mechwarper, and Goblin blastmage all need to be nerfed in one way.

Doctor boom could be changed to 8 (or 9) mana. Or make only 1 boom bot. Or 2 boom bots that are either 0/1 (or 1/1) that deal either 1-2 damage or 1-3 damage.

Mechwarper could be changed into a 2/2, 1/2, 2/1, cost 3 mana, or have it be the only first mech creature cost 1 less.

Goblin blastmage.. I like the concept of the card, I wouldn't change the stats (of it being 5/4 (unless you make it a 4/4), but 4 damage when it comes into play is too much. Either nerf it to 2 or 3 damage.


Edit, also agree that hunter and/or warlock hero powers are way too strong. Unsure what would be a suitable replacement would be though.

Regarding the BGH comment and nerfing it to 8 attack kill instead of 7, I have provided list of creatures it kills (excludes a few things that grows (i.e. questing adventure, void terror, etc)

Creatures with 7 attack

druid of the fang
mech bear cat
flame leviathan
prophet velen
neptulon
earth elemental
venture co. mercenary
mogor the ogre
illidan stormrage
doctor boom
baron geddon
force-tank max


Creatures with 8 attack or more

ancient of war (uprooted)
malorne
gahz'rilla (damaged)
king krush
edwin vancleef (comboed)
anima golem
mal'ganis
grommash (damaged)
fel reaver
the beast
gruul
ragnaros
alexstrasza
mekgineer thermaplugg
nozdormu
onyxia
deathwing
sea giant
clockwork giant
mountain giant
molten giant


So in constructed play, at this moment, it kills Doctor boom, neptulon, and Baron geddon. BGH existance is preventing cards like earth elemental, prophet velen, illidan storm rage from even seeing play. Unsure if cards like mech-bear-cat and/or flame leviathan would even see play even if BGH was nerfed to 8 attack. So, BGH existing at 7 attack kills 3 cards that see play and kills 3 more cards that won't see play just because BGH exists as is.

I would be in favor of changing BGH, however the problem is, Doctor boom. The answer for doctor boom is BGH (a bunch of times) and if you nerf BGH, you have to make a significant overhaul to Doctor Boom.


(Edit, forgot a few, War golem at 7, Ironbark at 8, Core hound at 9. None of those see real play so not a big deal).

Gromm
Jaraxxus
Al'Akir
Tirion
Vol'jin
Archmage
Cenarius

I would say 4 are really strong (Gromm/Tirion/Archmage/Cenarius) and are used pretty regularly in many class decks--Vol'Jin/Al'Akir to me are both really good. Jaraxxus is obviously used in 2 popular decks and against certain classes (Priest) is fantastic.

Bol'var
Flame Leviathan
Prophet Velan (I've actually seen it lately)
Malhorne

Are pretty much unplayed.

Gahrilla, Krush aren't bad they just are slow or overpriced.
Edwin is solid but pretty rare in decks (although he's been more common lately), Trade Prince (I haven't seen him in a while) just isn't really used.
Neptalon is solid.
Malganis is solid especially from a void caller.
Juggernaut is played albeit not in many decks.


I think we need more solid class legendaries but unless if Hunter get's a cheaper, rush legendary it won't likely get played at the 7-9 mana range due to the current deck lists which favor low curves.

I totally agree with Jim on BGH. Right now it's definitely ruined a ton of cards and giving it an 8+ target range instead of 7+ would be a huge plus for a ton of cards that are just on the edge of being played.

Isn't the premise that most Warlock class cards as relatively weaker / less efficient because the hero power is so strong?

I only say that because then continually nerfing Hunter class cards isn't so much "ignoring the real issue" as it is just taking a different road towards balance.

Pool of legendaries is so ****ing weak?

Legendaries that see play constantly:

Cenarius
Archmage (with the release of GvG cause of spare parts (and that's another card that needs discussion)
Tirion
Vol'jin (sparsely)
Edwin Vancleef (although falling out of favor)
Neptulon
Al'akir
Lord Jaraxxus
Mal'ganis
Grommash
Bloodmage Thalnos
Harrison Jones
Loatheb
Sylvannas
The Black Knight (albeit, falling out of favor)
Baron Geddon
Dr Boom
Kel'thuzad
Ragnaros
Sneed's old Shredder
Alexstrasza
Ysera


Yet, out of these 22 of these, we're "complaining" about only 1 of them. (Although archmage needs serious discussion as well, so 2 out of 22, are the problems in the game right now regarding legendary effects). Also, out of these 22, 11 of them (HALF) can be silenced so they either go back to their base stats or they do nothing special.


Also, legendary that could use a buff.

Bolvar. In the form of can't be targeted by spells or hero power.
King Krush. 8 mana
Gahz'rilla. 4 mana 3/7
Malorne. 6 mana, 6/8. (maybe leave a smaller creature as well as the current death rattle?)
Hemet. 5 mana. 5/5. Destroy a beast or a dragon.
Mekigneer. 8/8 for 8. (although if bgh goes to 8, make this a 7/9 for 8)

Leeroy is also played pretty heavily.
Cairne isn't bad either.

Mimiron's head is a joke win more card.
Hemet is a joke.
Foe Reaper is too slow.
Malygos is sick if you can pull him off and combo but that's rare.
Blingatron is played in 1 deck.
Gazlowe is meh, same with Toshley.
Trogger actually isn't too bad and should get more play.

You're right about Leeroy/Cairne, Just they have fallen quite a lot so didn't really list them. So 2 out of 24.

Lol at complaining about Dr boom and also wanting the 7/7 body to be outside of bgh range. It would be a HUGE boost to have the bots weakened a little bit and the body buffed a lot.

Double lol at saying warlocks hero power being broken when it has five archetypes none of which are that strong. A version of DemonLock is doing well in the meta today but it likely won't be tomorrow (figuratively speaking).

Well, those 3 things were more discussed in isolation right now. If they did change BGH they'd have to change Boom differently of course. I was more saying right now just tweaking Boom Bot damage seems ideal.



I don't think it's just "want to drop big minions and say GG" (at least for me, though I understand there are some like that too). I think it's more I'd like to have the option of playing some fringe cards and either see if they are good or have fun with a unique ability (like Mech Bear Cat, Neptulon, Flame Leviathan, Prophet Velen, hell even mogor for lols). Just not possible to do so with BGH running wild though. The concept of BGH - while a bit stifling - is necessary in some capacity.

Life Tap has been something I've been back and forth on ever since I started the beta. Coming from MTG I just couldn't fathom having a Greed in play as one class and not the other ones. Just seemed like the most broken thing ever. Over time I've kind of warmed to it due to the variety of decks it's made available. I wouldn't shed a tear if they did something to it (I know Kibler for instance keeps harping on the future issues Life Tap will bring and I've learned over the years to trust his takes on design in general) but I thought the other 3 were more pressing issues for current meta.

zoo becomes more and more played again. handlock never left the high level competetive play although it has risen and declined in popularity ever since the early beta.
the point bixby made about warlock class cards beeing worse because the hero ability is fundemtaly tronger than the othersi argued about a yaer ago.
tge point is the warlock heroability is kind of like the buzzard was. it limits the designers a lot in what they can and cant do.

didnt red the last post before i made mine. yeah kibler is a smart man when it comes to ccgs.
maybe its just me but i dont think hunter is that much of a problem to be honest. it could be countered better if you ran a different deck but than that would make you vulnerable to a different popular deck.
thast pretty much how a meta should be no?

Two thoughts regarding Mad Scientist:

What if it read: Deathrattle: Put a secret from your hand into the battlefield; if you hold no secrets draw a secret from your deck.

OR

Since secrets aren't activated during your own turn, what about making the Mad Scientist function similarly? Have it read something like Deathrattle: If this minion is killed during your opponents turn, put a secret from your deck into the battlefield.

That would you allow your opponent to potentially "play around" your mad scientist. That might be too much of a nerf, though.

warlock's hero ability is strong in isolation, but as with any argument, i think the proof is in the pudding when it comes down to "what is overpowered?"

meaning: look at the most popular cards and decks. WHY are they so popular? The answer for these questions tends to lead to a conclusion of "they are so popular because they are so good!"

this is in spite of having any specific synergy or thematic relevance to a deck. for example, even in aggressive decks, people find a way to include dr boom. something is very broken when a deck can lack any 4, 5, or 6 drops, and have a 7 drop.. because it's ridiculously OP. the other card that comes to mind - and ive said this many times, even though i doubt it will actually get nerfed - is piloted shredder. the fact that both cards have mech synergy is icing on the cake.

as far as specific classes, hunter is popular as ever. this is the case even though hunter class cards have been nerfed repeatedly. no other class has "suffered" the same extent. on one hand, hunter is so popular because their decks tend to be cheaper to make. but the other major reason - and, oddly enough, why a lot of their decks are cheaper - is because it IS the best hero ability in the game.

warlocks, on the other hand, are not popular. yes, there is an ebb and flow to the meta, and right now warlocks as a class are very intriguing since they offer the ~most successful archetype builds, but in competitive play none of the possible decks rank that highly. (when i say that, any deck or deck type "can" work, i just speak of the varying power of a deck) whereas with hunter, even with only 2 true archetypes (face and the midrange, although a feign death deck could??? work, it just is less powerful) BOTH versions are played very often on high ladder play.

in general i find a lot of people are too quick to shout out "overpowered!" some cards are meant to be bad (like gnomeragan infantry!) and others are meant to be good (like, say, knife juggler) but an overpowered/unbalanced card is where it affects the state of the game... and boom, imo, is the only card that really fits this definition.

i also think when they say they have no plan to nerf it, that means nothing. that has been blizzards stance (and should be) about any nerf even if they actually nerf the card. i WOULD be on it getting nerfed, just a matter of when.