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Old 06-20-2017, 12:38 PM   #1
Indynirish
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You're the hero with QdJd

I like when DrStrange does this, so hopefully he won’t mind me borrowing his idea.

We are playing a $20 tourney with 20 minute levels, currently at 50-100. We are just before the break, about 24 people left in the tournament. I was one of the villains, you are the HERO in the BB with QdJd.

In general - - - Everyone at the table knows everyone well. We have thousands of hours of play time together. Table talk is common and greatly exceeds the notion of "one player to a hand", though for big pots there will be a little bit more discretion. (This is word for word what DrStrange says about his place, applies here as well)

SB: Bud Light. $4400. Supertight player, biggest nit/rock in the tourney. One of two big drinkers.

BB: (Hero) $9800. Pretty LAGgy, is also the director.

UTG: Cecil. $3900. OMC, thinks he plays tight, but nothing like SB.

UTG+1: Black Cloud. $1600. LAGgy player, complaining about being card dead all night. Recently lost a big pot to BB.

MP1: Marine. $15600. Current chip leader, plays a very aggressive loose game. Also is a joker/friendly guy.

MP2: Ninja. $2900. Just joined table, but hasn’t uttered a word in the 20 minutes he’s been there.

CO: Punky. $3200. Another power drinker. Passive and loose, fun player to be at table with.

Button: TheChad. $9200. Pretty strong TAG, might think he’s a little better than he actually is. Some history: Lost the previous hand to the Hero holding KQ for a pair of kings, when an Ace spike on the river. Folded to Heros all in bet. Hero showed bluff.

You’re the hero with QJ, in the BB.

The hand:
Limp from MP1. CO limps. The button raises to $600. Sb1 calls.

Action is on Hero, should he fold, call, or raise? If raising, how much?
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:34 AM   #2
mariettabull
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Call. You have position on one person currently at the table. While it's possible you could get heads up against the Button, the other two people in the hand are both loose players. No point in raising here if you're going to fold to a four bet from MP1, the CO, or the Button. Yes, you're likely to be in the pot five ways, but with QdJd, I'm okay doing this. You hopefully get to see the flop for 600 with a hand that plays well post flop, and if you need to check-fold on the flop on a complete whiff, it's not a big deal.

The other argument against 3-betting here is the simple fact that having shown the bluff to the button, he could be salty and 4 or 5 bet simply because you're in the pot. If you didn't have the two limpers and if SB hadn't smooth called, I could see three betting here to see if the button is raising light to try and steal your BB along with the dead money. Given that that's not the case and there's a strong possibility the SB has a good hand, I'd just call and see a flop.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:24 AM   #3
Bene Gesserit
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

When I used to play Tournament poker I really wanted to see a flop with a hand like QdJd , but I did not want to pay a lot. I would just call here also and hope the other two players either call or fold.
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Old 06-21-2017, 04:21 PM   #4
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I think I can find a fold here, but it doesn't make for a great thread, so I'll call.

MP1 - Chip leader limped and plays aggressive. We're OOP. I'd like a better spot.

CO - 32BB, passive and loose, just called. With a couple of calls of 600 in front, may be in fold/shove and I don't want to call the shove.

BTN - TAG and we're OOP. Raised over limpers, with position, could be a steal.

SB - super tight, worse position and called a raise.

With a call, we've got to smash this flop and have a favorable runout.

Raise to re-steal... not after SB called, and with loose players. I'm not looking to get HU with anyone for a moster pot OOP, and if the super-tight SB called, I'm not ahead there either.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:36 AM   #5
Indynirish
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Moving on:

Hero almost can't get his call in fast enough. MP1 makes a comment that he must be beat if the SB is in the hand (this kind of thing happens all the time here, noone ever says a word), him (MP1) and the CO fold. I do remember the Button (TheChad) commenting at this point to the BB, "Should I just ship you my chips now?"

Flop comes
JQ7

SB checks, action on BB Hero.

Does he check/bet? Currently $2000 in pot.

stacks
SB $3800
BB $9200
But $8600
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:09 PM   #6
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I'm betting every time here. We've got the best hand (presumably) and a draw heavy board. We'll get action from a few worse hands, no need to be coy. Obviously playing for SB's stack if he gets involved although if he is that tight and C/R's us that can't be a good sign. If Button re raised I'd be willing to go to war with him since there are a lot of monster draw hands possible from that flop. I'm betting enough that SB knows he has to play for his stack if he wants to continue, probably 1400.
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:52 PM   #7
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I bet 1000 here. If he , But ,folds OK. If he calls , a little less OK, but not awfull. A raise, if not too large, is OK. If SB Check raises then I think hero is in trouble and may need to consider if SB has slowplayed QQ or JJ . That wouldn't be good. Really tight players often like to trap with a big hand.

Last edited by Bene Gesserit; 06-22-2017 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:40 PM   #8
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I don't like a bet of just 1000 here. If BTN callls, SB has 4:1 odds to draw to a flush. Something like _Drogo_'s 1400 is a minimum, because non- A's or K's may also be outs for either villain.

With that wet a board I don't want two callers, and I don't mind just taking what's in the pot now. I'm thinking a shove works here. This often looks like a nut flush draw, so TPTK type hands might call but now they won't have the proper odds.

Last edited by DoTheMath; 06-22-2017 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Punctuation.
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Old 06-22-2017, 02:50 PM   #9
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

This flop should hit btn's range, so I'd go for the c/r. That's also what we'd do with most of our draws, and it gives us the best chance to trap the SB in between. If we lead and btn raises, we're losing the SB a lot of the time. Looking at stack sizes of btn and H, c/r also aims towards gii after 2 streets. Leading means we'll have to bet all 3, and get paid on all 3. Too optimistic.

For the record, I dislike the "Let's pretend we're the V" conceit. It's not alowed in LLSNL, for good reasons imo. Imagining how players worse than us should have played a hand, instead of discussing how we should exploit those players, seems less than efficient. But I'm at work, so naturally I'm chiming in. :P I'd also recommend in future HHs we only need reads on relevant V's. Not as much fun to type up, I know, but the OP was a wall of text, I only read description of btn and blinds, since they're the only ones who matter here anyway.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:39 PM   #10
Indynirish
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

sw_emigre said:
Quote:
For the record, I dislike the "Let's pretend we're the V" conceit. It's not alowed in LLSNL, for good reasons imo. Imagining how players worse than us should have played a hand, instead of discussing how we should exploit those players, seems less than efficient. But I'm at work, so naturally I'm chiming in. :P
Actually, what I'm trying to do is see what others would have done, and more importantly...why they would have done it. I'm not generally certain who is the good player, bad player, in most of the interactions I see at the table. I always wonder if I could use some things others people do here to improve my game.

I don't want to go a great deal into it for spoiler reasons, but the reason I said I was one of the victims, is that I wasn't involved in the hand except as a person who folded. I didn't want to take credit for being any kind of a hero, if that makes any sense.

sw_emigre said:
Quote:
I'd also recommend in future HHs we only need reads on relevant V's. Not as much fun to type up, I know, but the OP was a wall of text, I only read description of btn and blinds, since they're the only ones who matter here anyway.
I did the full descriptions for 2 reasons, though what you said I agree with.
1) DrStrange does it, and since I was borrowing his style, I didn't want to screw it up.
2) On the off chance someone from the game is reading this, they'd get a kick out of how I described them.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:39 PM   #11
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indynirish View Post
2) On the off chance someone from the game is reading this, they'd get a kick out of how I described them.
I post some stuff on another forum, and always link my friends so they can see that the entire internet is mocking them. It's also always super +EV to find out who you play against is a 2p2 reg. There's at least 3 reg posters from my city on 2p2 but I don't know who they are irl. Would pay serious money to find out....
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:39 PM   #12
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I'm betting in the 1500 range. While I'd like to check and induce a cbet from button, the board is a little too draw heavy. There's also the chance that due to history, the button will want to play back.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:45 PM   #13
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
I think I can find a fold here, but it doesn't make for a great thread, so I'll call.

MP1 - Chip leader limped and plays aggressive. We're OOP. I'd like a better spot.

CO - 32BB, passive and loose, just called. With a couple of calls of 600 in front, may be in fold/shove and I don't want to call the shove.

BTN - TAG and we're OOP. Raised over limpers, with position, could be a steal.

SB - super tight, worse position and called a raise.

With a call, we've got to smash this flop and have a favorable runout.

Raise to re-steal... not after SB called, and with loose players. I'm not looking to get HU with anyone for a moster pot OOP, and if the super-tight SB called, I'm not ahead there either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indynirish View Post
Moving on:

Hero almost can't get his call in fast enough. MP1 makes a comment that he must be beat if the SB is in the hand (this kind of thing happens all the time here, noone ever says a word), him (MP1) and the CO fold. I do remember the Button (TheChad) commenting at this point to the BB, "Should I just ship you my chips now?"

Flop comes
JQ7

SB checks, action on BB Hero.

Does he check/bet? Currently $2000 in pot.

stacks
SB $3800
BB $9200
But $8600
BTN - TAG and we're OOP. Raised over limpers, with position, could be a steal.

SB - super tight, worse position and called a raise.


Flop is smashed. It's also dripping wet.

Lots to consider, but I think the short version is we should bet here. I don't want BTN to check behind. I think 1000 is too small in this spot. I'll fire 1500. I'm probably ready to ship in stacks now.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:19 PM   #14
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I'd check here with the expectation the button will bet at this pretty often. If Btn bets, we can act depending what SB does. If SB calls, we call behind. If SB folds, we can raise it. Only sets beat us here and flush/straight cards will be pretty transparent if they hit on the turn.

Worst case scenario is it checks through and we lose value, but our hand is pretty well disguised in that case.
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Old 06-26-2017, 09:42 AM   #15
Indynirish
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Continuing:
BB checks. Button bets $1000. SB1 folds.

I'm going to "fast forward" one action here, as the BB called before even the SB had acted. And, to me, this is where the hand got alot more interesting.

Turn is A

Board: <JQ7> <A>
Action is on BB, now a heads up pot

$4000 in pot.

BB has $8200
Button $7600

Check or bet...how much?
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Old 06-26-2017, 11:52 AM   #16
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indynirish View Post
Continuing:
BB checks. Button bets $1000. SB1 folds.

I'm going to "fast forward" one action here, as the BB called before even the SB had acted. And, to me, this is where the hand got alot more interesting.

Turn is A

Board: <JQ7> <A>
Action is on BB, now a heads up pot

$4000 in pot.

BB has $8200
Button $7600

Check or bet...how much?
If by interesting you mean "bad for us" then yeah, I guess so. Just the worst card in the deck, that's all (I guess maybe 10h would be worse). So many of the hands we were ahead of either caught up or picked up a LOT more equity even if we are still ahead (AxKh for example). Man I hate life when that card comes although he might hate it too. I'm going to check. Sometimes I will turn my hand into a bluff here but I don't think this is the spot for it. Check and if he bets big I'm probably puke folding. If he bets small I might call and see what river brings.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:12 PM   #17
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indynirish View Post
Continuing:
BB checks. Button bets $1000. SB1 folds.

I'm going to "fast forward" one action here, as the BB called before even the SB had acted. And, to me, this is where the hand got alot more interesting.

Turn is A

Board: <JQ7> <A>
Action is on BB, now a heads up pot

$4000 in pot.

BB has $8200
Button $7600

Check or bet...how much?
This is why we should have raised big OTF.

Check/fold unless BTN is known to frequently bluff in situations like this. In that case, check/call.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:39 PM   #18
Bene Gesserit
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Poker is often annoying. I check also. Maybe the 3rd Heart or the A by itself scares him too. I am just about through with this hand. I might consider calling another smallish bet by the BTN , but I also might just save my chips since this is a Tournament.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:19 AM   #19
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
BTN - TAG and we're OOP. Raised over limpers, with position, could be a steal.

SB - super tight, worse position and called a raise.

Flop is smashed. It's also dripping wet.

Lots to consider, but I think the short version is we should bet here. I don't want BTN to check behind. I think 1000 is too small in this spot. I'll fire 1500. I'm probably ready to ship in stacks now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indynirish View Post
Continuing:
BB checks. Button bets $1000. SB1 folds.

I'm going to "fast forward" one action here, as the BB called before even the SB had acted. And, to me, this is where the hand got alot more interesting.

Turn is A

Board: <JQ7> <A>
Action is on BB, now a heads up pot

$4000 in pot.

BB has $8200
Button $7600

Check or bet...how much?
We check called a 1/2 PSB on the flop.
Turn is a scare card. Of course with this flop there weren't many safe cards. Maybe it's going to kill the action?

If the button is TAG, I'm going to check/fold this turn.

If BTN checks behind, and we catch a Q or J on the river, I'll fire out a 1/2 PSB and yes, I'll sigh call the shove.
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:03 PM   #20
Indynirish
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Continuing:
BB checks. Button bets same as last time, $1000.

At this point, before BB acts, button makes a little speech on how it is just his luck to always get involved in a pot with the BB. (Not the position, but the player who is currently the BB)


Call, fold, or raise.
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:58 PM   #21
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

A speech? Been playing a while and "the speech" is not a good sign. If this was cash I might call and get ready to go to my wallet. Since it is a Tournament and chips are very important i let this hand go and become a spectator.
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:19 AM   #22
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Button is TAG, gave a speech, as declared, I'm folding and waiting for a better spot.
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Old 07-01-2017, 05:05 PM   #23
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

I said I'd call if it was a small bet but we all know how consistent a tell the speech is. Folding now.
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Old 07-06-2017, 11:57 AM   #24
Indynirish
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

Continuing:
BB calls after some minor deliberation.

Thought the previous card was bad???

River is 10
Board: <JQ7> <A><10>

At this point, one of the players long gone, UTG+1, starts moaning about his poor luck. (I'm sure everyone here knows what I mean) SB and the Button comment that you should probably keep that kind of stuff to yourself until after the hand. The BB comments it doesn't bother him any, no big deal.

Action on BB:
Check or bet?

Stacks:
BB $7200
But $6600

$6000 in pot.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:21 PM   #25
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Re: You're the hero with QdJd

How many ways is the BB beat here? Glad I folded. His stack is still decent sized for the tournament. BB should check/ fold to any bet. Next hand.
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