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Old 04-01-2008, 08:42 AM   #1
badblood44
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Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

A scenario that came up in a home game - who wins this pot?

Three players are in the pot on the flop, pot size, board, and holdings are irrelevant.

Player A checks the flop.
Player B bets $40.
Player C calls $40.

Player A check-raises to $140.
Player B re-raises all in to about $500
Player C declares verbally "fold." Entire table bears witness.

Player A does not fold, but says, "I kind of wish I had folded the flop."

The dealer, thinking that player A said fold, clears the board, and takes BOTH player A's and player B's cards in that order.

The muck is washed and confusion ensues. Who wins what portion of the pot? Player C at this point is the only one with cards in front of him, but had most definitely verbally folded.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:04 AM   #2
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

Player C folded, Player A did not protect his hand. It does not sound like Player's A hand can easily be retrieved form the muck.

Player B wins the pot.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:25 AM   #3
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by badblood44 View Post
A scenario that came up in a home game - who wins this pot?

Three players are in the pot on the flop, pot size, board, and holdings are irrelevant.

Player A checks the flop.
Player B bets $40.
Player C calls $40.

Player A check-raises to $140.
Player B re-raises all in to about $500
Player C declares verbally "fold." Entire table bears witness.

Player A does not fold, but says, "I kind of wish I had folded the flop."

The dealer, thinking that player A said fold, clears the board, and takes BOTH player A's and player B's cards in that order.

The muck is washed and confusion ensues. Who wins what portion of the pot? Player C at this point is the only one with cards in front of him, but had most definitely verbally folded.
Dealer: 2 KITN.... maybe 3 for various bad dealing procedures.

Players A and B- KITN for not protecting cards and not stopping idiot dealer.


After that: Is this a cash game or tourney? I assume dealer is not the host or Players A-C


a) Has the deck been fouled? I'm assuming yes by "muck is washed" but want to be sure.

if not

b) Can the board be exactly recreated?

if so

c) Can the players cards be easily retrieved as identifiable? If mixed in the muck, this answer is NO even if the players both remembered their cards (unless you have 98% trust in their

d) Can A and B remember their cards exactly? Suits are wrong, hand is dead.

If all of the above allows the hand to be recreated properly, do so and $360 in action is the decision for Player A.

If, as I suspect, you cannot do this:

Player A's "I kinda wish" could mean anything and doesn't play. Pot goes back to $120.

Now, either
i) Player A and B split the $120 or

ii) Everyone gets their money back

Personally, I like

iii) Player A and B get money back, player C verbally folded and tough luck, the $40 from player C gets either put into the next pot or preferably, gets donated to charity because the entire group may be too stupid to live

Last edited by Lottery Larry; 04-01-2008 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:10 AM   #4
badblood44
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

Larry, it was agreed that your scenario i) was the most fair way to handle things.

Dealer was sorry and already wears a protective cup. Player's A and B need to protect cards, no question about it.

Player C is one of only 15-20% of players who always brings card protector to game. Tool? Perhaps. But he's never had his hand inadvertently mucked.

Player B argued that he was the last person with a hand as Player A's cards were mucked first and should perhaps get the entirety of the pot.

Being friends and in a home game, the issue was to be handled as stated above.
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:54 PM   #5
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

I think you should have a Death Match to determine the winner.

Peace
Wwonka
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:09 PM   #6
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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Originally Posted by badblood44 View Post
Player C is one of only 15-20% of players who always brings card protector to game. Tool? Perhaps. But he's never had his hand inadvertently mucked.

Player .
What about being one of the few players to bring a card protector to a friendly game makes him a tool?

just curious.

signed,
Card Protector Junkie

(for what it's worth, I used to be the only one most nights with a card protector, now, many use chips, and many others bring their own for the "cool" factor).
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:14 PM   #7
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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Larry, it was agreed that your scenario i) was the most fair way to handle things.

Being friends and in a home game, the issue was to be handled as stated above.
I think that was the best ruling possible in the circumstances, even if someone else had suggested it first.

I still like version three, however :P
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:16 PM   #8
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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What about being one of the few players to bring a card protector to a friendly game makes him a tool?
If A and B aren't complete morans, they'll learn that lesson.

I had several incidents (including a tourney knockout near the bubble) with swiped cards, that finally got through my thick skull and I use something on my cards whenever possible.
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:00 PM   #9
badblood44
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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Originally Posted by LaredoChris View Post
What about being one of the few players to bring a card protector to a friendly game makes him a tool?

just curious.

signed,
Card Protector Junkie

(for what it's worth, I used to be the only one most nights with a card protector, now, many use chips, and many others bring their own for the "cool" factor).
Just some self-directed humor. I'm player C and have a custom card protector, but sometimes feel that I go overboard with my enthusiasm for poker related products.
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:19 PM   #10
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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What about being one of the few players to bring a card protector to a friendly game makes him a tool?
I was wondering that myself. It's great, even if I don't have one with me, when I go to any game I have all these little flat discs they give me in exchange for cash. They all work wonderfully as card protectors. And if I find they're all otherwise occupied, I have these flappy meat things at the ends of my arms that have proven useful on occasion.

I agree with Larry:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
the entire group may be too stupid to live
I don't agree with awarding the entire pot to Player B because he didn't protect his hand. "Oh, but I was the last one with cards!" he argues. Sorry, bub. The short form is "protect your hand" but this really means "protect your interest in the hand". This means protecting your cards. This means making sure the pot is correct. This means following the action. And this means stopping the dealer before he mucks everything. If he wanted the pot, he should have paid more attention. I'm a fast dealer, and even I can't even flip a board and reach over and grab the cards of two other players and mix them all together faster than the speed of light (or even of sound).
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:13 PM   #11
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

Ok, so now that you know what we did, because it was a home game, what does a casino do?
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:49 PM   #12
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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Originally Posted by pie taster View Post
Player B wins the pot.
First reply hits it on the head. Player A should have been more careful while discussing the hand.

I had a situation in a game where one guy said "I should call you" and half the table only heard 'call you'... and the other player showed his hand when he heard it. We then forced the guy to actually make the call with his crappy cards.

Also applies to accidentally checking by tapping the table while pondering a bet.
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:34 PM   #13
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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but sometimes feel that I go overboard with my enthusiasm for poker related products.
That is just a sign of the truly Bless-ed, the Poker Brethern. Be not ashamed of thy piety....
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:35 PM   #14
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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First reply hits it on the head. Player A should have been more careful while discussing the hand.
If neither B nor A has cards, how can B win the pot?
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:41 PM   #15
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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If neither B nor A has cards, how can B win the pot?

play the board?
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Old 04-01-2008, 10:45 PM   #16
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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If neither B nor A has cards, how can B win the pot?
you don't have to have (ok, show) cards to win if everyone else folded, or is determined to have folded in this case.

What did player B do wrong? nothing
What did player A do wrong? he was unclear about his intentions while chatting it up about the hand. he learned a valuable lesson... just say FOLD, CALL or RAISE
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:28 PM   #17
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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you don't have to have (ok, show) cards to win if everyone else folded, or is determined to have folded in this case.

What did player B do wrong? nothing
What did player A do wrong? he was unclear about his intentions while chatting it up about the hand. he learned a valuable lesson... just say FOLD, CALL or RAISE

So, you haven't acted on the re-raise, but you've raised. The dealer has taken every active card in the hand.

How exactly did A do anything wrong here, that B did not? How are you awarding the pot to B- based on last raise before his cards disappeared?

Go reread the OP again.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:30 PM   #18
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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play the board?
How can you play the board if there IS no board? How can you win a poker hand when only 3 cards are possible (you don't have a hand, remember?)?

How do you declare a hold'em hand winnable without a turn or river?
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:37 AM   #19
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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Originally Posted by badblood44 View Post
A scenario that came up in a home game - who wins this pot?

Three players are in the pot on the flop, pot size, board, and holdings are irrelevant.

Player A checks the flop.
Player B bets $40.
Player C calls $40.

Player A check-raises to $140.
Player B re-raises all in to about $500
Player C declares verbally "fold." Entire table bears witness.

Player A does not fold, but says, "I kind of wish I had folded the flop."

The dealer, thinking that player A said fold, clears the board, and takes BOTH player A's and player B's cards in that order.

The muck is washed and confusion ensues. Who wins what portion of the pot? Player C at this point is the only one with cards in front of him, but had most definitely verbally folded.
How is it that the only player that supposedly folded still has cards.

What a mess.

As for what a casino would do? I find it hard to believe that this exact scenario could or would happen in a casino

ps. along withthe natural card protectors described by pfapfap I own 3 others. I always have and use a card protector.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:26 AM   #20
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
How can you play the board if there IS no board? How can you win a poker hand when only 3 cards are possible (you don't have a hand, remember?)?

How do you declare a hold'em hand winnable without a turn or river?
you obviously have no imagination
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:50 AM   #21
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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So, you haven't acted on the re-raise, but you've raised. The dealer has taken every active card in the hand.

How exactly did A do anything wrong here, that B did not? How are you awarding the pot to B- based on last raise before his cards disappeared?

Go reread the OP again.
The dealer killed the hand because player A said fold (or 'I wish I had folded pre-flop') or heard the word fold. In a casino player B wins because the dealer killed the hand and made a judgment call. In a home game you can try to recreate the hand the best you can but it sounds impossible. Player B is waiting for player A to decide what to do, and while deciding, player A used the word FOLD in an unclear (to the dealer) manner. Player B has rights to that pot.

That is how it would shake down at my pad, and like I said, crap like that can happen in a home game, and showing players that while having fun they need to be mindful that everything they do or say can have a game-related reaction, it makes them a cleaner player. The accidentally checking one used to be real bad for us, then it stopped when we enforced their action. Player A needs to be careful of what he says (this coming from a notorious talker during hands) and realize to not use the word FOLD, CALL or RAISE unless that is what he intends to do... IMO

Last edited by ShannonRyu; 04-02-2008 at 07:51 AM. Reason: got some of my A's and B's mixed up
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:56 AM   #22
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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The dealer killed the hand because player A said fold (or 'I wish I had folded pre-flop') or heard the word fold. In a casino player B wins because the dealer killed the hand and made a judgment call. In a home game you can try to recreate the hand the best you can but it sounds impossible. Player B is waiting for player A to decide what to do, and while deciding, player A used the word FOLD in an unclear (to the dealer) manner. Player B has rights to that pot.

That is how it would shake down at my pad, and like I said, crap like that can happen in a home game, and showing players that while having fun they need to be mindful that everything they do or say can have a game-related reaction, it makes them a cleaner player. The accidentally checking one used to be real bad for us, then it stopped when we enforced their action. Player A needs to be careful of what he says (this coming from a notorious talker during hands) and realize to not use the word FOLD, CALL or RAISE unless that is what he intends to do... IMO
I think that ruling too strictly myself, especially since the dealer was the main person at fault here. If you were going to be that technical on Player A, who did NOT say that he folded, then dealer's gross violations of proper dealing procedures would require him to reimburse A the $40.

You'd get a long, loud argument from me if this was handled this way and I was somehow Player A. I think there would be an even louder argument in the casino, if the dealer had done what was done here.

But, it's your game. You can run it as you choose. I wouldn't choose to run it that way, in this situation, myself.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:58 AM   #23
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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you obviously have no imagination

LOL
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Old 04-02-2008, 08:54 AM   #24
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

Have a three-way kick in the nuts Reservoir Dogs style.

Who ever stands afterwards wins.

Then refer to the dealer as "Waffles" for the remainder of the night.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:00 PM   #25
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Re: Yet Another Protect Your Hand, Who Wins The Pot Question

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In a casino player B wins because the dealer killed the hand and made a judgment call.
In two years of dealing in a casino I have never seen this happen. Every once in a very long while I'd start to muck an unprotected hand, but it got stopped long before two hands were mucked and the board was cleared. Were it to happen, I would expect negative consequences from up above. I also wouldn't count on Player B getting the entire pot, and I wouldn't be surprised were I encouraged to pay out of pocket. The ruling would vary depending on the room and the floorperson.

Nobody in this situation did anything right here, including those not in the hand. As a dealer you learn that even something like "I should fold" is not a fold, not even close. As a player you learn to protect your hand. And as a non-angle-shooter, you don't wait for the hands and board to be mucked before claiming you were the last player with cards. If he insists on that logic, give the pot to Player C.
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