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Old 06-03-2017, 04:05 PM   #1
FearlessPhil
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What's the problem?

I am playing in a 2-5 game. This is a regular game that is run out of a player's garage and has a group of 20 or so players who make up the player pool so I have played with the players in this particular session many times.

I am on the button. After the flop, a player in middle position raises to 30. Nobody else calls I throw out a $100 chip and a $5 chip without saying anything. The players to my left fold and it gets back to the original better and he doesn't say anything for a few seconds and the dealer says "it's on you". He then says "I made the bet" and the dealer tells him I raised. He then gets all irate and insists that my bet was just a call because I didn't verbalize it. He then says something to the effect that he thought I threw out the two chips because I wanted to make it easier for the dealer to make change. When he is told that it was a raise, he gets angry, tosses his cards in and asks to be cashed out.

Did I do anything wrong in this scenario?

Please don't tell me that I should have verbalized the bet. In this particular game, I make all of my raises non-verbally for a number of reasons(unless it is a single chip scenario) and I have no desire to start doing so.
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Old 06-03-2017, 05:08 PM   #2
Bene Gesserit
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Re: What's the problem?

If you insist on being non verbal, that's your business. Of course that just increases the chances of misunderstandings, confrontations, and so on by a small to moderate percentage. That is the chance you take by not declaring your action. You asked if you did something wrong. I don't think you did any thing wrong at all. You just have to be ready for an occasional dispute over what your intent was.

You state you have a number of reasons why you don't verbalize action. Fair enough. Still your business. I sincerely hope that "trying to look cool" is not one of them. Maybe it is not.

Last edited by Bene Gesserit; 06-03-2017 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:11 PM   #3
FearlessPhil
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Re: What's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
If you insist on being non verbal, that's your business. Of course that just increases the chances of misunderstandings, confrontations, and so on by a small to moderate percentage. That is the chance you take by not declaring your action. You asked if you did something wrong. I don't think you did any thing wrong at all. You just have to be ready for an occasional dispute over what your intent was.

You state you have a number of reasons why you don't verbalize action. Fair enough. Still your business. I sincerely hope that "trying to look cool" is not one of them. Maybe it is not.
Trying to look cool is certainly not one of them. Mostly I just don't want to give away the additional information that can happen when you verbalize a bet.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:44 PM   #4
Bene Gesserit
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Re: What's the problem?

OK, again fair enough, and maybe sometimes that might make a difference. Mostly I don't think simple one word statements of intent make much ( if any) difference. Still it's a small thing that only causes trouble from time to time , so if it makes you feel more secure at the table to stay silent , then that's a personal choice. No big deal really.
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Old 06-03-2017, 06:48 PM   #5
BackDoorFlush
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Re: What's the problem?

Of course you didn't do anything wrong. It's $105 to go. LOL about some guy getting mad about the situation. I guess he doesn't like getting 3-bet.
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Old 06-04-2017, 12:34 AM   #6
BigBlue56
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Re: What's the problem?

No, you didn't do anything wrong.

There could be some missing information that makes it less right, but as read, nothing wrong.

To play devil's advocate, it's a home game with different expectations. One of them is being social, perhaps even more important than maximizing profit. For example, angle shooting is bad in a casino. It's much worse at a home game. Same with keeping the fish happy to play with you at a casino, or keeping reasonable people happy at a home game (some are just always grumpy, whattya gonna do?). Verbalizing actions at a home game isn't an unreasonable request, as there may be players unfamiliar with casino game procedures. On the other hand, the player who was upset was 100% in the wrong, as it was the same outcome as if you had announced raise to $105. I might be sympathetic to the upset player on my left, who didn't know that my silently tossed in single $100 chip was a call, because they are used to a different norm.

Finally, there is a player that used to play with us, who became super annoying after starting to play more and more in the casino. He was in casino mode, there rest of us were there to screw around in a low stakes game. He plays more and more in the casino, and less and less locally, even becoming uninvited to the regular gang's game.

What would most other players do when raising in that spot?

I respect your choice not to speak, but I think I'm in the majority when I tell you that I doubt you are giving any useful information with a short declaration of your action. What do you think you might be 'leaking' when you speak?
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:11 AM   #7
FearlessPhil
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Re: What's the problem?

I pick up all kinds of information from other players when they speak. The tone of voice often changes depending on whether they are confident or not. A lot of people's voices get higher pitched when they are bluffing. Other people say things slightly different when they are bluffing or betting the nuts. When I do say something, I try to keep it monotone and use as few words as possible but I've always felt that the best approach is just to let the chips do the talking.
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:33 PM   #8
dmccoy87
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Re: What's the problem?

Other guy was 100% in the wrong here. Sounds like a douche.

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Old 06-04-2017, 08:37 PM   #9
dmccoy87
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Re: What's the problem?

I play in a home game and rarely announce a raise. Sometimes I do, which could lead to confusion in a scenario like yours. And even with inconsistent raising, I've still never seen anything like that.

Even if he was legit confused, a simple "oh, my bad" on his part should be the end of it.

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Old 06-07-2017, 02:53 PM   #10
andrew12341231
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Re: What's the problem?

The problem is you are playing with a whiny person.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:13 PM   #11
DrStrange
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Re: What's the problem?

Hero is technically in the right here. His action is clearly a raise. We don't have any reason to suspect an angle shot. The other player was confused and seemingly unreasonable. The right ruling was made. However, Hero might be making a serious systemic error if he is one of the winning players in the game.

[ Note that I am assuming the OP is one of the solid winners in this game. ]The winning players in a home game have an interest in the game's health. I'd call it an obligation, but others might not. This is a self-centered interest. Hero would like to remain welcome at the game and for the game to attract a healthy community of players.

The host will extend more slack to an average or worse player than he/she will to one of the big winners. At least that is true for me, I can empathize with a grouchy player who is yet again about to have a losing session. But my patience for one of the winners making the game a less happy place is quite limited.

So lets take a look at the situation in the original post, but from a host's point of view. Op doesn't seem like much of a benefit to have at the game, though he generally is not a problem. However tonight his silent style of play, while legitimate, sets off one of the other regulars. Not only did the game lose one of its donators, but the turn of events soured the table. The OP didn't break the rules or even bend an angle, but he has made a problem for the host.

The situation likely is a one-off thing but there is always some chance that the host is going to have future issues. When the weaker members of the player pool start to have problems with a specific player, the host isn't going to tolerate that for long.

So my question to the original poster is this - - - Are you willing to risk getting dropped from the game to keep 100% of your edge? Are there things you can do to enhance your value to the game? You have to know that few if any other players in the game can extract "tells" from your voice - and that there are plenty of other ways to leak similar information. Is it worth taking even a tiny risk of getting the boot to avoid speaking, being fearful of tells?

As a host, I have limited patience with 'that" player at the table. The character who wraps himself in swaddling, jams on ear-phones and never joining in the community at the game. Of course I don't know that OP is "that" player. All I can do is suggest that Hero might be better served to be more social even if he does risk giving a tell once in a while.

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Old 06-17-2017, 11:34 AM   #12
the_spike
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Re: What's the problem?

There's not enough information here to talk about game dynamics so no sense in that really. Obviously villain is a baby who shouldn't be playing higher than .01/.02. Nothing at all wrong with being non-verbal, even in friendly casual games. Assuming you're social otherwise.

Your action description is confusing because I doubt villain actually raised anything, but if he did you left out action.
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Old 06-17-2017, 01:01 PM   #13
eneely
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Re: What's the problem?

Did you thrown out the two chips together, or separately? Your post is not clear on that. Throwing out a $100 chip, then going back and getting a $5 chip could be seen as confusing your intended action.
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Old 07-02-2017, 04:21 AM   #14
braisps
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Re: What's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
If you insist on being non verbal, that's your business. Of course that just increases the chances of misunderstandings, confrontations, and so on by a small to moderate percentage. That is the chance you take by not declaring your action. You asked if you did something wrong. I don't think you did any thing wrong at all. You just have to be ready for an occasional dispute over what your intent was.

You state you have a number of reasons why you don't verbalize action. Fair enough. Still your business. I sincerely hope that "trying to look cool" is not one of them. Maybe it is not.
100% agree
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Old 07-07-2017, 10:06 PM   #15
ImAllInNow
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Re: What's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eneely View Post
Did you thrown out the two chips together, or separately? Your post is not clear on that. Throwing out a $100 chip, then going back and getting a $5 chip could be seen as confusing your intended action.
I don't think anybody would argue that that's anything but a call.
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