Cliffnotes:

• While playing some tournament in a bar, someone repeatedly does something that's annoying to other people, but not cheating - like acting out of turn or missing your turn.
• That person is chipleader the entire night.
• Late at night, everyone is drunk.
• Some key hand, same thing happens again - other big stack moves All-In and chipleader calls/raises out of turn.
• Fish consider this cheating and ask the host to take disciplinary action.
• All fish at table threaten host they'll never come to play again unless they get that pot.

How should the host decide ?

Here's what happened in detail:

Let's say you're playing some home tournament and someone constantly violates the rules - but only in a way that's extremely annoying to the other players, not cheating or trying to gain an unfair advantage.

For instance:

• Repeatedly acting out of turn
• Repeatedly missing his turn because he's not paying attention to the game (talking to s.o. who's not playing for instance)
• Berating fish (maybe once or twice that night)
• Asking about the current blind level every few hands
• Spilling drinks all over the table (maybe once every couple of weeks)
• Showing live cards to someone sitting next to him who's not playing and also doesn't know much about poker - this person didn't see anyone else's cards and also didn't give any advice (but fish complained about it nevertheless whatever reason)

But let's say these things don't happen all the time and they weren't done on purpose - but they happened just often enough to make the other players (almost all of them were fish) get upset.

What's a good way for the host to handle this, I mean for this particular tournament, not as a long-term solution (as not inviting this person anymore would fix that issue) ?

There were less than 8 players in this tournament, but it was agreed that everyone could rebuy as often as they want until some particular time and then play it till the end winner takes it all, so it went for quite some time and everyone was pretty much drunk, but there was a lot of money in the price pool.

I must admit, I was the person who did these things mentioned above - simply because I wasn't really paying too much attention to the game, I was already a bit drunk, there was a tv running in the background and I was talking to some girl who was sitting next to me.

It was a really fun tournament in the beginning, but after the rebuy phase ended, these fish got really frustrated when they saw their stacks dwindle and me and some other player take all their chips.

They must have accidentally overheard some comments I privately made to that girl, I think I said something like "what a terrible call, that was the first hand that I openshoved in the last twenty minutes", and then they started to get very upset.

I got warned several times about missing my turn or acting out of turn - which was really hard to avoid, these guys were holding their holecards in their hands and often taking extremely long for their decisions - so it was hard to see who was still in and who was not.

This entire match, I limped utg, everyone at the table called. Flop came 399 and before I could do anything, the person behind me overbet like 4 times pot-size, two others called, one of them All-In. That bet was already a significant portion of my stack, and a call would definitely pot-commit me - but against these fish, I decided to trap them and only flat call instead of shoving.

Turn came a beautiful 3, I checked and the flop-overbetter moved All-In. After that, there was some chip-counting, talking and we also got new drinks. About 30-45 seconds later I felt like everybody was looking at me, so I quickly said "All-In" - after all, I had already been warned for missing my turn.

Well, as it turned out, there was still another person left to act before me in this hand - so I had in fact acted out of turn. Now all of a sudden, the flop-overbetter got extremely upset, called me a cheater and asked the host to take disciplinary action against me. How showed a 3, hiding his other holecard, and the other fish agreed with him that he should get the pot - threatening the host that they'd never come to play again otherwise.

How would you react as the host ?

Can any disciplinary action even been taken during a life-hand - especially if the one who's taking it is still playing in that tournament and it's a key hand which will almost certainly decide about the tournament win ?

With all due respect for these fish, I fully understand why they were frustrated, and I've already been warned several times about acting out of turn and I did it again this hand.

On the other hand, I was the chipleader before this hand, I got about half my stack in on the flop and winning this hand (as it played out, getting the other big stack All-In) would have given me more than 85% of all the available chips, thus making it an almost certain win.

But of course, the host also doesn't want to lose these fish as his customers (he owns that bar where we played and was a friend of mine).

How would you decide if you were in his shoes ?

Jack

It sounds like you were being a condescending, drunk, A-hole.

That being said, acting out of turn will never kill your hand. He could have given you a penalty, making you sit out for 10 minutes after the completion of the hand,or something along those lines.

Well, you're probably right about the drunk A-hole thing and I wouldn't have complained if he excluded me from playing in future.

You can have a copy of an official rulebook and show them the relevant section. Also, you can emphasize that it as an advantage to see what someone wants to do.

As for possible penalties: I was at a cash game where if you raised out of turn it was automatically treated as a call. I think rules also treated out-of-turn calls of a bet as binding, even when there was a raise (Player A bets, Player C calls, Player B says, "wait it's on me, I raise", Player C now folds but is forced to leave the call of Player A's bet in the pot). There may have been a rule about betting OOT. There was no penalty for calling out of turn.

In your situation, these rules would probably be sufficient to send a strong message to the violator, as well as comfort the "victims."

Btw, I personally didn't like these rules because people will hesitate more when betting/raising, which will slow things down a little. It will also make the casual players more attentive, which could be -EV, and possibly everyone a little more tense. Not withstanding these particular fish you mention, I also think it would also piss off more people than it would please.

While acting out of turn may be done without the intnetion of cheating it is more than simply an annoyance. It can alter the game. If you think the player is simply inattentive as opposed to seeking to gain an advantage by acting out of turn you warn him that he needs to pay more attention. If he continues to do this you uninvite him from playing. If you think its intnetional you uninvite him quicker.


As for the other stuff that is annoying and you have to figure out which is better worse for the game....having annoying prick there, or not having him and that should determine your tolerence level before throwing him out.

There should not be game penalties for these things as many are subjective and it seems that having players withj a vested financial interest determine that they should penalize a player by taking his money or putting him a disadvantage for being an ******* is not really a wise or effective system

1) Give the player(s) a warning first time this behavior is brought to the TD's/floorman's/host's attention.
2) Give penalties (forced sit-outs for an orbit, or so) if this behavior doesn't stop and reoccurs.
3) If the behavior doesn't stop, disqualify the player(s) and remove their chips.

"...don't happen all the time..." and "...just often enough to [...] get upset" is kinda paradox.
What matters is that it's annoying; it should be called and something done about it.

Talk to the guy/gal! Explain why he/she got warned/penalised/disqualified and tell him/her to change his behavior or he/she won't be invited back.

Siriously - are you kidding? Man, what's wrong with you? Do I (respectively this forum) really have to tell you what to do, or how to behave so that people won't think you a douche!?
If you want to play poker, do so in a manner which allows you and others to enjoy a smooth game. You may drink, but don't drink too much. Pay attention to the action and so forth. Gosh... is this really so hard to figure? Learn some self-discipline!

I think they did not only get upset because you took their chips, given your behavior...

Yeah, you're an a-hole. Don't be. Change that attitute, or remain an a-hole, but don't ask people/floormen to like a-holes.

Ask the players to not conceil their cards with their hands, and call the clock on players who take longer than 1-2 minutes to act.

As the host, I'd do this: The player who did not yet act can act. If he raises, you can re-evaluate your action and can alter your all-in to a call, or a fold (in which case you can retrieve your chips). If the player who did not yet acted calls, checks, or folds, your all-in stands and the hand plays out.

In any case, after the hand is finished, you get penalized: one orbit forced sit out for repeatedly acting out of turn + one orbit sit-out for being slightly drunk (two orbits total). I'll also give you a warning to stop drinking, to pay attention to the game, to not act out of turn, or you will be disqualified the next time this behavior is braught to my attention.


The only thing I can think of is declaring the hand dead, but I would never do that. It's just childish. You get your penalty after the hand played out.

Only thing I can add is this. If your not sure that it's your turn, it's better to ask "Is it on me?" rather than "I'm all in" especially given the animosity at the table at the time. Understandibly difficult to process this in a split second when drunk, distracted by a chick and holding dem nuts but most of the poker world seems to manage.

As host, I would not kill your hand but I might ask you to choose between playing cards or playing with the girl.

If it were my home game and a first timer made himself into a big enough problem that the regulars are in an uproar, the first-timer is getting his buy-in back or cashed out and an escort out the front door.

If it were my bar and a new player is pissing off my steady customers, I am going to toss him out as well.

This isn't a matter of how to follow the rules of poker, its understanding that your core players/customers are what's important. I know we see a lot of 'poker brats' on TV - it makes for a more entertaining show I guess - but that type of stuff is not appropriate for a social game. When someone behaves poorly enough, its time to send them home.

My $0.02 -=- DrStrange

Thanks a lot for your comments.

I think I really underestimated how much acting out of turn may impact the game. However, it's not that easy to avoid when people are taking abnormally long for their decisions while fully covering and thus hiding their holecards, so you can't see who's still holding cards and who's not.

For me, playing homegames is about having fun, not to win money, so it's quite normal for me to talk to other people while playing, especially in a bar.

However, I wasn't fully aware how annoying such a behavior might be for other people at the table.

Calling the clock on someone who takes more than 2-3 minutes might be an idea, but I also didn't want to be the guy who's over-pedantic and criticizing others for their behavior. And throwing chips directly into the pot when betting is another problem which makes it really hard to follow the game.

How about you just stop being a douchebag?

Hey, I understand. I can be a bit if a jerk. I don't mean to, I'm just drawn that way. But now you have awareness, and it's time to stop.

NO EXCUSES. I don't care why the stuff happens, it's on you to stop.

1. No drinks on the table. Find a side table. Use the floor. This is a standard rule in my home game. In another game I play, the guy who kept spilling finally brought a sippy cup. Seriously. Works wonders.

2. Pay attention to the action. If you're not sure where it is, ASK before assuming. Do NOT call the clock. That sends the douchometer in the wrong direction.

3. DO NOT TALK STRATEGY. DO NOT CRITICIZE PLAY. Nobody likes Phil Hellmuth. Don't emulate him.

4. Take a voluntary break. A month or so. Go back humble and quiet. Get your act together.

As to rulings at the time, your hand should not be killed. But that they ganged up on you is a sign that you are incredibly out of line. It doesn't matter what happened in the past. Fair or not, let it go. You seem self-aware about your behavior, which is great. Now fix it.

^This 100%. You acted completely out of line, tapped the glass and made everyone else feel uncomfortable. You seem to make excuses such as they were holding their cards out of site, taking too long etc.

To me these are just excuses to justify your poor behavior you call "Just having fun." I'd be blown away if you were ever invited back to this game. You're right, it's supposed to be fun, but it sounds like not many others were having fun due to you.

All that being said, you sound intelligent enough to take a look at your behavior, post a decent thread asking for opinions and take the constructive criticism very well. Props for that and for learning and growing from the experience.

This sounds like a weak game that you could beat and have fun at the same time. It's as simple as adapting to the others' bad play (e.g. if you're not sure it's your turn, simply ask; be friendly and helpful when the more novice players need help; etc.).

Make these guys want to give you their money by being a pleasant guy and everyone has fun.

Yeah, thanks a lot.

This thread really opened me the eyes and showed me how other people were seeing my behavior and you guys are so right about that.

I'll try my best to learn from this and behave better in future

Jack

To make myself clear: You can call the clock on s.o. if he repeatedly slows down the game by either not paying attention, or taking more than 2-3 minutes for every decision.
Don't call the clock if it's obvious that the player in question is faced with a tough decision, picked his spot, and needs some more time than usual - we all want to have some extra time when it matters, but we also respect the other player's concern that the blinds are eventually raised and that a tourney is not a single man show.

Like I said, ask politely to keep cards in plain view and to not cover them up.
In return, pay attention, don't drink too much, and practice yourself what you expect from others.

Way to go.

I agree. If poker players were producing the shows I don't think you would see all the toddler temper tantrums like David Williams ripping up a card at the National HU Championship, seriously, they're all pros, well kind of...fish seeing that kind of behavior is like you letting your first grader watch a movie with violence and bad language, they don't know any better!

Something to keep in mind though is that a bar tourney isn't really a home game. There are a lot of people who take the bar leagues very seriously. Especially those who don't have the time, or money to get to a casino, or have a casino within a reasonable distance to their homes. If you want a drunken social hour with some accidental poker in the back round, then you might want to host your own home game.

You could eliminate poker from the scenario and still see how irritating the behavior was. Think how well one would be received just sitting at the bar if he spilled drinks, interrupted people (acting out of turn), and ignored people when he was addressed (not paying attention to the action).