I play in a .5/1$ home game, pretty friendly, no rake with the same usual rotation of 8 to 12 guys. A pretty new guy has been coming, this is maybe his 4th session, each time he leaves up pretty big. He's in a hand with one of the regulars, who is a mostly rather large losing reg but very nice guy...

Pot has about 50-60 dollars in it and reg leads out for 25 dollars on the river. Newer guy tanks, stands up, then exposes both cards to show j10 on a board of 4 j k A 9 no flushes and doesn't really say anything. (people exposing cards has happened and its fine, although it has happened very rarely and not once tonight). AFter maybe 2 seconds reg exposes pocket 2s and starts to scoop the pot. New guy quickly says that hasnt folded yet and then starts to scoop the pot away from him. The reg says how fcked up that is etc... and we all eventually rule (as is correct) that the new guy did indeed win the pot cause he calls after the reg exposes his cards.

The two of them argue for a while, the reg exclaiming that he was sure that the new guy's intent was to fold and that it was an honest mistake. And objectively, there was i'd guess over a %50 percent chance of him folding (based on prior similar laydowns, body language etc...)

A quick thing to consider imo: new guy is up about 400 and reg is down god knows, maybe 250-300.

We all, except new guy, think they should chop it. It gets really heated b/w a bunch of us and new guy..saying it was an honest mistake on the regs fault and yes, the ruling is new guy wins, but that's just a dick move especially considering how the night has been going.

We all argued for a while which eventually broke the table (there were 2 tables running) and new guy cashes out and leaves. It almost came to blows. anybody have any opinions on this? I mean, i would of chopped the pot regardless of anything cause its a friendly game, even if i was down. If i was up 400 I would of gave it to him in a heart beat...but that's just me.

thx for reading, sorry so long.

its an honest mistake but the new guy has to give up $50?
dunno bout that.
if i were up 400 i wouldve chopped too if the main point of the game is fun not money
but if the new guy insists on keeping the whole pot there's nothing u can do

unless there is a specific rule that you cant expose your hand, the reg loozez

no crying, no chopping, if you dont know the rules of the game dont play

The reg should have held tight. Nothing had happened yet except for exposed cards. Pretty dumb to expose his too.

what if it was 90% chance he was folding?

New guy gets money, but probably doesn't get invited back... or, really, accepts any invitations, since he almost got attacked by a mob of insiders at a poker game.

Big BIG KITN to the host for letting this get out of control, with a mob scene. The regs also sound like sore losers and might need sore cojones.

Chopping the pot sets a bad precedent because it allows a consistent angle to be shot using this ruling: Opponent flips up his cards to get a read on me. If I see that I am beat, I flip up my cards too, make some bogus claim about thinking that my opponent folded, and get a chopped pot.

I wouldn't feel all that bad for the reg either, nice guy though he may be. Basically, he saw that he was beat, and when he thought that new guy folded, he flipped up his 2's to show what a brilliant bluff he made, which is a bit of rubbing salt in the wound. A little showboating is fine amongst friends, but when it backfires and costs you a pot, you just gotta take it.

Yeah. My opinion is that the host needs to grow some gonads and step up to take care of these things long before they get out of control.

If the regular is a regular, then the regular should know by now to be clear on an action before reacting to it. If anything, this seems like an angle on the part of the regular, and if I was the new guy I'd be insisting on the entire pot, too. And I also probably wouldn't show up again. Hell, if I'm another player in the game, this whole situation and the way it was handled makes me less likely to show up again, too.

If you're going to host a game, then you need to be a host.

Here's how I rule: New guy wins the entire pot. Now shut up and deal the next hand.

I step in before it becomes heated, and I let the regular know that any whining and complaining needs to stop immediately. I very sternly tell the regular that he should know better than that, to wait for action to be clear before reacting to it. If he doesn't settle down, then we discuss it outside and let the game continue.

I'm more sympathetic to the new guy, but I suggest that in the future he make it clear that he's not folding before he opens his hand like that.

I wag my finger at the rest of the table, and encourage them to be more pro-active in the future. When they see that someone misunderstands, do what they can to stop it from getting to this point, even if they're not in the hand. And I know this time was only two seconds, but the results illustrate how it's best to try to avoid this type of thing when you can.

Why? What did he do wrong? He exposed his hand, which happens often enough that people should know that it happens. Once he saw that his action was misunderstood, he clarified it immediately.

The regular is the one I might not invite back. He reacted to a common action without clarifying what it meant. Then he started grabbing a pot before the other hand was killed or anybody even told him that it was his. Then he tried to angle for half the pot, and got the support of the entire room. As a player in my room, he's representing my room, and he created a ridiculously negative situation and then continued to argue over it with a new player. I don't need that kind of person in my room, no matter how loose he is.

If I'm new guy, I'm taking the chips and cashing them out immediately. There's no way I'm continuing to play in an environment where the entire room will gang up and try to steal half my money.

pfapfap, you forgot your line: Protect your hand. Which I guess should be directed at the reg for flipping up his hand before confirming that the new guy folded.

It's difficult to suggest what the "right" move is without a little more context.

Assuming that your game allows for players to show cards to each other in head's-up situations, then neither player broke any rules, and there's still pending action to be completed. The hands are live, and should be played out -- regardless of who was so stupid as to show the other person their cards. Ship the pot to the pair of jacks.

But that's just about how to rule on the hand -- your problem is about what's best for your game, it's health, and the players in your game....

If this is a sum of money that might bring people to fisticuffs (which it appears to be), then the host needs to get his nose into this pretty quickly. ...and unless all of your players share the view that a melee is the way to solve these sorts of disputes, you're going to need to figure out a way to keep it from happening in the future.

This is definitely the sort of game that I would not return to if I were a new player in it - regardless of if I were in the hand. Frankly, $50 isn't worth a punch to the teeth in my book any more.

On the other hand, if this money is small potatoes, you have options. It's your "casino" and it's your rules. Void the hand if you want - fair? I'll tell you what's fair -- sit down and shut up is what's fair. Best solution? Probably not. ...but it's among your myriad of choices.

...all I'm saying here is that you need to manage your game - take care of problems like this before there's a chance of a fistfight.

I agree with the ruling. You should attempt to reconcile peacefully, but ultimately there was no action taken by the "new guy" that should have made the reg think he was folding.

As reg, I would have scooped pot without showing cards and make the dealer force action from the "new guy" if he's going to call or fold. Showing cards as the reg was a mistake.

Thanks for the responses, they are helpful and i will take up some points with the host...

With this situation, I think the small details are what are important. Everyone at the table (4 others besides new guy/reg) thought that the new guy was completely out of line. And that's weird cause everyone who posted here agrees with the ruling (not that the ruling is wrong...just that the new guy showed no class).

I guess my main point, as someone who thought the new guy was acting like a piece of sh*t is that there was a huge chance that new guy was folding and once he noticed that he was ahead that he obviously called. The nuances of this situation that aren't expressed here are that new guy seemed imo to have angle shot alot to win and is at this game solely to win money and take advantage of any possible ways to do this. I just saw it as incredibly poor etiquette. Let the reg (who is just a horrible player in general) have the pot. I guess its a lot different to be there and see it.

He won too much money from the group, too many times.... enough to incite a mob mentality against him.

I'm not saying he's at FAULT (unless there's a rule against exposing cards early) in any major way... but he's already way ahead and he can be seen as "pulling a trick" to get the reg to expose.

Read my whole response- I suspect he may not WANT to come back.

See, pfap? If you were psychic like I am, you'd have KNOWN there was more to the story and that new guy wasn't a saint!

I guess that's why I'm green... and you're just green with envy.


Danfresh- maybe the guy shouldn't be invited back, if he's not falling within the spirit of the group. But in this situation, as described.. unless he violated a known rule about not showing cards heads-up, he did NOTHING that was severely wrong.

He may have needed a KITN too, if he was shooting a "look, I'm folding!" angle... but as described, he didn't do that.

Just because you don't like the guy, doesn't mean you can let it affect the proper ruling.

Completely out of line for what? Exposing his cards? You said that's happened before and it's fine. It happens in other home games and it's fine. It happens on casinos and it's fine. It happens on television and it's fine. Since it's fine to do pretty much everywhere, how is he out of line?

How is the other player not out of line for trying to take advantage of an ambiguous situation in order to steal money from the demonstrably best hand?

I don't see anything in your OP to indicate that the new guy was a piece of sh*t in this hand. If there was a history, please share it with us.

Poor etiquette where?

I'm not so quick to judge the new guy quite yet. I can believe that he maybe was pushing some boundaries, but the incident in the OP is hardly that. Yes, I've seen people expose hands hoping to confuse others. That's why I always ask, "Have you acted yet?"

But this is hardly cause for tar and feathers.

There is, however, much evidence from the OP that the players were jealous and perhaps a bit ego bruised that this new guy came in and walked all over them. I'm a little surprised that the new guy got the entire pot, considering the mob mentality, and that everybody seems to side with the regular.

We need more details other than "totally standard situation, but we don't like the guy so we think he's being dirty".

no one disagreed with the ruling. Of course new guy wins...its just that he chose to go that route instead of extend a little bit of courtesy to a guy that he already took a lot of money. for me, it was that there was a good possibility that he WAS folding but once he saw that he was ahead, totally changed his mind. I guess i didn't describe that as well as I could of.

Again...before I hear it one more time...the ruling was fine, no one disagreed with it. Its about showing a little bit of class in a friendly, no rake game. But i guess i'm wrong...home poker games are only about winning as much money possible by any means necessary.

Okay, seems I misread the tone of the room during the incident. You seem a little frothy about it, so I figured that carried through.

Could you elaborate a bit on the other angles he was pulling through the night? What are these "any means necessary"?

I can only echo what's already been said:

• New guy didn't break the rules or angle based on what I've read here. He legally exposed his cards without acting, got the info he was looking for when reg-fish screwed up, and called.
• KITN to reg-fish for a) failing to clarify the action and b) exposing his bluff when he thought new guy folded.
• KITN to all players who were willing to physically beat new guy over a few bucks.
• Double-footed KITN to the host for letting it get so out of control.

Some are and some aren't; every game has a different personality. Whatever that might be, it is your responsibility to pass this information to new players.

If new guy's style of play doesn't fit into your game, don't invite him back. He probably won't return after this anyway; I certainly wouldn't. But in my opinion, he's the only one who doesn't deserve a KITN.

This may be a case where you're all right. A problem is that "class" is subjective.

A good example is the "shaking hands after a beat" issue. Many players feel that this is a sport, and after you beat someone in a sport, you say "good game" and offer your hand. But other players feel this is a contest of wits, and to say "good game" after winning is rude if you played better and just obnoxious if it was a lucky hit.

See what I mean? Players on opposite ends of this both feel they're acting with dignity, grace, and respect. And they both feel the other is classless.

All this to say that I think it's possible to have a friendly rakeless game that is also about playing cut-throat poker and not giving breaks on silly stuff like this. In fact, some feel soft-playing is classless. I'm not saying this excuses angle-shooting, but so far there's no evidence of it.

[QUOTE=danfresh36;16107045]Of course new guy wins...its just that he chose to go that route instead of extend a little bit of courtesy to a guy that he already took a lot of money.[/qoute]

it's courtesy to give the pot to a worse hand?

uh, yeah?

there's a gap between what you've told us and "any means necessary". I don't quite get what this guy has done that you consider out-of-bounds. Turning your cards face up is unusual in some circles, but totally standard in others. You can't blame this guy for the other player's mistake. Maybe you can't blame the other player, either, but I really don't see how anybody had a cause to get upset, even remotely.


this may be a mistake. look at the big picture, and see what's really happening. all the little details are sometimes red herrings that confuse the issue. what I see is a guy who flipped his live hand up, then an opponent who mistakenly showed his hand. full stop. nothing there to get upset about. add another relevant ingredient if you have one, but not meaningless little details

tell your friend to not bluff 22 on that board and maybe he will stop crying while he light money on fire *don't tap on the glass?*

seriously though he exposed his cards, and this had been done in prior sessions, exposing a bluff after the last person to act exposes a better hand is straight up ******ed and is his own fault for not not showing.

i dont know the rule about exposing cards. but i know what i saw. in a tournament Gus Hansen was thinking about calling an allin bet and before he did he exposed his KQ. Tournament director come up behind him and told him that's a fold. Evidently even Hansen did not that.

what's important i think is that you have clear rules. and since you have done and accepted that in the past then i guess the reg has to accept now

totally different in a tournament. you can't expose hands before showdown in a tournament.

Yeah, and this has haunted us ever since. The Tournament Directors Association has clarified that this was a mistake, and that exposed hands are NOT dead. Additionally, those are tournament rules, not cash game rules.