Chop the pot....

Hey guys long time lurker... imagine my surprise when I was doing my usual lurking and I saw this... I was "hero" or "villain" in this hand ("winner" "shower" "piece of sh$t"). Let me first say that if a fight "was about" to break out, I had no idea and it certainly wasn't going to come from me, or be continued by me. Let me also say that, for the most part, this is a fun game with a bunch of good guys. Part of the problem is that I was new to this game, and I had been winning, which can make you some enemies pretty fast in a game full of "regs". I've played in a lot of different kinds of poker gamea, and walking into this game, the first thing I was told by the guy who runs the game is that the rules are "casino rules" and that they do try and uphold the rules consistently and fairly. I have shown hands in the past, sometimes when people muck, sometimes when I am mucking. When I am mucking, I will show cards and then immediately throw them into the muck. That is not what I did in this situation. The "deuce deuce" guy had been bluffing me relentlessly all night. I had called him down with a pair of 9s on a scary board and with ace high another time when the potts were bigger than this and his bluffs were scarier. It was completely consistent with my play and with the "game flow" for me to think about this situation, and then make the call. The other guys at the table were pissed because I was winning, and they didn't want this guy (who was losing and steaming) to have his money go into my stack. Pretty typical, and I can understand that. I got upset when the guys at the table started "ganging up on me" and calling me a dick (making it personal, not cool). At this point, I very evenly told the guys (maybe a few times) that they were "totally out of line" I cashed out and left. Problem is, I left my mittens that my mom knit me for x-mas at the place so I def have to go back. Also, I really like the game, and I like the guys (even the ones who were calling me a dick). I know people get heated, its part of cards, and I"m always willing to let bygones be bygones. Hopefully this thread can clear up any misunderstandings....
sorry about the length (and lack of editing), but as one kind of lurker, I know I would enjoy it (;

Well said and 100% agreed.

Welcome - I wish it was under better circumstances.

Based on the OP, maybe it came a lot closer to blows (on their part) than you realized.

It's good to hear your side of the story, but even without it, I believe that you were the only one who wasn't out of line. You're new to this game, you win big and everybody else gets PO'd, then they use this hand as an excuse to run you out of Dodge.

To each his own, but I'd think carefully about returning to this game. What happens next time when you win big again?

+1 to player A is the only one who didn't do anything wrong afaik. I implied that above, if I didn't say it.

I have to register an exception to the "It's only natural the guys got upset because he was winning". that's just spoilsport BS, and people who have no business playing poker. If you can't handle losing gracefully, stop this hobby right now, you aren't mature enough yet.

this thread is starting to tilt me. deep breath...

I'm no casino expert, so hopefully somebody else can fill in the blanks here --

If you are playing "casino rules", it's not clear to me that flipping a live hand up is allowed. Seems like I've heard that casinos frequently outlaw this for reasons that might be obvious to you now. It's a good idea, if you aren't 100% sure of the local rule, to ask before you expose your hand.

Thanks for all the welcomes! Its funny because I was pretty close to posting this myself. I was thinking about the situation all week and was feeling uncomfortable because I can't remember every being as verbally abused as I was in this situation. I like to surround myself with positive, friendly people, but you can't always choose who you play cards with. I would like to strongly emphasize that my choice in not "chopping it up" and, subsequently mortally offending my table mates, was one of principle. I could have easily chopped it up and still been a big winner for the night, but that's not what its about for me at all. That pot belonged to me, and it would be a character flaw to give it up. I play to have fun, and I play for money (so does everybody, right?). Everybody wants to win, including OP. He couldn't win that night (I failed to mention this before, but earlier in the night him and I got it all in for 250bb on a flop of 458o, he had KK and I had the nuts, and he was mega tilted and nasty the rest of the night), and so he tried to turn this situation into a "matter of class". because he couldn't get my money, he was going to try and take my dignity. He wasn't even involved in the hand, and he got 10 times more angry than the guy who was in the hand. I'll probably buy the kid with the deuces a few beers and bring it to the game as a peace offering, but I couldn't give him the pot, it would go against what I stand for when it comes to poker.

Smells like rationalization. Unless this was the first time the game didn't go by the book, I think you were pulling 22's chain and just provoked a few more guys than you expected. That doesn't mean you deserve to get socked, though.

OK, the fog is starting to clear a little.

when you're right, you're right, there's no profit in making your opponent look bad or feel bad about being wrong. I would not agree to chop this pot, but I wouldn't post this, either. This is a classic case of salt in the wounds.

Sounds like you could use a little attention to your diplomacy skills. And add some paragraphs, while you're at it .

gedanken- you're right. I guess I got a little impulsive. Now I'm remembering there was a reason why I've been lurking this site for years and only put my first post up today. My bad, I think I'll stay in the shadows from here on out.....

Agreed. And I'm not sure you'll be able to play this game again, because now you're on here and really making it personal.

Problem is, I agree with everything you're saying, and the way you present it really tilts this thing incredibly in your favor. But I don't think OP will react well to be told he's wrong by all of us, and then seeing you come on and add to it. This game may not be mature enough for you yet.

In the future, in any game, when you flip before acting, say as much. "I'm not making a decision yet, I'm just showing my cards first." And if you haven't done it at that place, ask. "I'm not acting yet, is it okay if I show my hand?

And it's okay, a lot of us here are impulsive. You'd fit right in.

"Talking's something you can't do judiciously, unless you keep in practice."

stick around and make some mistakes. we won't beat you up, that's for sure!

i was gonna stop responding cause this is getting probly too personal for a public forum. But your last response is so full of lies that I just can't ignore it even though I probably should.

First of all, I never showed my cards this hand or told you what I had. So this is just a blatant lie. Ya I was on tilt, but I enjoy playing with you and continued to before and after that hand.

Second, at the time of the hand we are arguing over, I was up 250 dollars and had no personal stake in the hand with you and J----. So that is just utter bullsht.

And to be honest, a lot of how I felt about this is b/c of you angle shooting subtely all night: I saw you look at mucked cards of another player and also how you tell people what you have in the most sincere way when they are facing a river bet..."hey I have top two...really...just lay it down". Then they call and you show 7 high....Sht like that...ya its fine and not against rules, but to me its the same as going all in then exclaiming how you didn't see all those chips back there of your opponent, or raising and saying how that raise was an accident then having the nuts when someone calls.....whatever, that stuff is not against any rulings but just makes people out to be scumbags in my book. Maybe i'm too uptight.

It just shows that playing poker isnt about integrity of the game but of using any and all psychological means to win other peoples money. In a casino i think it's dirty, but in a friendly homegame where everybody knows each other, its just disgusting....And when J---- flipped over his cards and you saw you were ahead, you went from almost (in my honest opionion) folding, to 'oh sht, he screwed up and i can take his money. Even though you were up a ton and he was down a ton. You talk about principle...extending someone who is way down just a little courtesy that affects your bankroll barely at all...that to me is principle.

all you're fluffly language bullsht ' oh i just want to play the game and surround myself with nice and positive people' or 'i'll just buy the kid a couple beers as a peace offering'...its such wolf in sheeps clothing business hippy bullsht. To me, you just see a bunch of kids who aren't great at poker and do what you can to extract their money. Ya...that's poker, but there's a whole side to this homegame you're missing.

Again, I guess I apologize for this whole thread...it really has nothing to do with twoplustwo and this letter is taking it farther than it should. But *** it, I had no stake in the hand or money changing hands, i just felt i'm looking out for a friend.

First I want to clarify my "game might not be mature" comment. This is not meant as an attack on the maturity level of those in the game. What I mean is that the game itself hasn't matured. That is, it's still at the level of good friends splashing some chips around and soft-playing. And that's not a bad thing, but games that have been around a bit longer tend to get more into the hard-play aspects of the game.

Okay...

Guys, let's calm down a bit. Playing poker is not disrespectful. I agree with some of your examples of angle-shooting, but not all of them. I think you both need to be more considerate of the other's viewpoint, and hold off on the assumptions and judgment calls.

There's an old saying that took me about ten years to fully comprehend (and I'm still working on it)...

Would you rather be happy or right?

I spent a while fighting on the side of justice and purity and honesty and truth and all of that. But these days, I do what I can (not always successfully) to relax a bit and step away from the volatile situations. Because you know what? Nobody ever goes into it thinking, "I'm totally wrong, but I'm going to deliberately piss the other person off!"

What I've learned is that if I spend less time trying to prove that I'm "right" and more time trying to find accord... in the end it turns out I don't feel "wronged" nearly as often. See what I mean? I get to be happy and right. Everybody wins!

I can agree with a lot of what you're BOTH saying. I really feel this is a situation of different views and expectations clashing. As I said with the hand-shaking example, it's a case where both parties feel they're acting above-board, and both parties feel the other is being shady. And you're BOTH right!

It's possible to acknowledge the validity of another viewpoint without diluting your own. And I mean truly acknowledge and believe, not just give lip-service.

See, this kind of thing doesn't help (nor do the assumptions of what you were thinking given by the other person). He is NOT lying, he is merely sharing his viewpoint and his take on the situation. NEITHER of you are lying, neither of you are deliberately deceiving, and neither of you are trying to screw the other person over. I think it would help if everybody stepped back from the concept that there's any sort of absolute truth to be had here.

Okay, finally some details and more context.

I agree completely with you that looking at mucked cards is an absolute no-no. I'd call that crap out on it immediately and insist that it stop. You're right to find that shady, and to be wary of him in general after it. This is entirely valid in every way (in my view).

The other one, though, well, that's just poker. I know in your viewpoint that it's rude and impolite, but in some circles check-raising is also seen as rude and impolite. This is merely a case of different expectations about the environment.

It's no more rude to deceive your opponent about the strength of your hand in poker, than it is rude to make the tie-breaking final goal in soccer. "Oh, man, we were about to tie, and you've gotten great shots all night... why be so disrespectful like that?"

Yeah, that stuff's a bit more borderline, I can give you that one. I don't engage in such things myself, and they're the tricks that only work once, anyway. They're in a gray area.

Another judgment call, and it's hard to say. Yes, I agree that the player should have been more clear on what he was doing, but it's not all that unusual a situation. Your friend should have clarified before assuming anything. Both players made a mistake, but you can't force someone to do what you think he may have done. The hands were live, and he had every right to call. I would have done the same in his situation, and I would have felt sheepish in Joshua's situation, but I wouldn't say any of it was cheating. Protect your hand.

Yeah, I think this is a case of youthful exuberance and extreme thinking. It's okay, it happens to all of us. You're taking your own specific view of the world and projecting it onto others. When it doesn't mesh, you're judging the other person rather harshly. But it's the same for the other person, in that he's also facing a situation with viewpoints not meshing. Does that automatically mean you're a scumbag?

No, it doesn't. There are multiple perspectives on any story (not just two polarized sides), and often it's merely a matter of finding the disconnect. We're all in it together, and we all want the same thing, out of poker games and out of life. Let's work to build up, not to tear down.

pfapfap thanks for responding in such a thorough way. I just want to say that I apologize for bringing so many personal issues into this forum.

Trust me, we're used to it. And others are used to me doing it.

pfaf may not be willing to say the people are immature, but I will. Seriously, I would not be comfortable in a crowd that evidences the conflict-avoidance skills of these kids. Somebody please say you're sorry, because it's obvious you're all wrong now. The high ground is up for grabs.



[edit-- I wrote before post #39. should probably delete the whole thing in the spirit of reconciliation...]

this, and many other details, are simply not relevant. don't rise to this bait. you are muddying the waters and not moving towards a solution with this sort of thing.


this, on the other hand, is a serious allegation. unfortunately, I'm forced to read it in the most skeptical way possible right now.


this is perfectly normal in most circles. I think you are responding to an attitude more than an action, which is not to your credit.



fair statement. but the answer is not forcing him to split pots after he wins them. You don't invite him back, or in an extreme case, ask him to leave. but you also need new players time and information to get into the groove of your atmosphere. People bring their own expectations of what's "normal".


putting a real name on the internet is not very classy. (Unless this is a pseudonym)

he hadn't acted yet. that's the relevant fact. what you think he was planning to do most of the time is just a laughable concept. Can I hold you to what I think you're mostly planning to do when I play you? Until he acts, all options are open to him.


you guys need to learn the basics of logical thinking and arguing a point without confounding the discussion with personal attacks. you'll live longer, and keep your teeth, not to mention your mittens.

Firstly, I think that the new guy is a principled player and I can understand exactly what he's saying. That doesn't mean that his unsavory tactics which will be well welcomed in your game, and definitely doesn't mean hes good for the health of the game.

New guy quite simply has a strict cut throat poker code that you do not adhere to or agree with.

If the new guy is reading this I'd just like to mention that not tapping the glass is +EV. This may not be true in the casino where you can get a random to tilt off several BI's to your antics, but how many 100nl rake-less live games are there around.

I also felt like the bit about "wanting to play poker with some cool people" smells a bit. I feel like if it were true, you'd notice that you were offending them early on and cool it off a little bit.

"not to mention your mittens"

Perfect.

It doesn't matter. The reg tabled his hand without waiting for action to complete. new guy gets the pot hands down. At the very least, the reg should of asked the new guy his intention.

If no one disagreed with the ruling then why

1: Suggest little bit of courtesy to a guy that he already took a lot of money

2: Suggest good possibility that he WAS folding

3: Suggest Its about showing a little bit of class in a friendly, no rake game

4: Suggest i guess i'm wrong...home poker games are only about winning as much money possible by any means necess

You guys made a ruling stick with it. You can't drag this stuff into forums trying to prove who is right and who is wrong after the fact. Sound slike to me the new guy simply doesn't fit into your group. Maybe you guys should part ways.

note to schmend.... sarcasm meter broken, please schedule repairs...

and take gendenken and a few others with you, to fix their meters

coward

Methinks you need to re-examine your approach to the game, at least this home game....

Yep:


"Character flaw"?? Please tell me you are leveling us...

What kind of home games did you start out with/grow up on, before you became a home game pro?

Because this is VERY common at the neighborhood games that I remember, back before we TVilized all home games into B&M clones....

EVERYTHING he's saying? Really? You?

Metagame sense? "New player in established game" sense? Really??

I don't believe it.