Looking for thoughts on a recent occurrence at our regular weekly home game.

Some background:
Numbers have been dwindling the last few years due to people getting married, having children, etc. Where we used to get 7-8 people a week we now get 5-7. We've been considering moving to every other week to see if that gets numbers up.

We start at 7:30 pm and have traditionally allowed late buy-ins up to 9 pm. The tournament usually goes for for 4-5 hours (till 11:30 pm - 12:30 am). This has been to allow regulars who have to work late or have family obligations to still play, usually people are there by 8 - 8:20 when they come late, but 9 pm is the absolute cut off.

We start with 3000 stacks and blinds start at 25/50 with 25 minute levels. One re-buy is allowed per player up until the money.

The point of the game is to have fun and it is a social atmosphere. We follow Roberts rules of poker and do follow the rules (as stated here, although everyone is trusted and friends it is important to have the rules for structure and eliminate any temptation at angling, etc).

Lately one of the regulars has started coming at ~8:40 pm on a regular basis. He is going out for drinks with people from work (he moved to a new job about a year ago) before coming as our poker night is the only night of the week he can go out without the wife getting upset (multiple kids). He's done this three weeks in a row now.

So............. people are starting to make comments and I really think this is not in the spirit of the rule we put in place. I did some math and he's missing out in ~1000-1400 chips in blinds.... It doesn't help that I would classify him as the best player in the game. Whenever rule discussions come up his attitude is always that he's there to have fun and so is everyone else. A couple weeks ago I was getting pissy with him as he had his chips in a big pile as opposed to stacking them. Rules clearly state that big chips need to be up front and chips need to be countable. His response was that this isn't a casino.

I honestly don't think he is coming late to get out of the blinds, but I do feel it gives him an unfair advantage.

In addition, this player is the slowest player in the game. Every decision is a long decision, and there are times where he is slow to even look at his cards. So when he isn't at the game we actually get more hands in each level making the missed blinds more significant.

In order to keep things fair any rule change we make has to apply to everyone.

I was thinking of 3 scenarios and was going to propose them tonight.

#1 - 2BB penalty for every 1/2 level missed (so if a player comes in the first 10 minutes of level 3 75/150 then the penalty would be 900 chips - 4x50, 4x100, 2x150. How I came up with this 2BB number is that using our average length of hand, average # of players, etc it works out to about 4-6 BB per level.

#2 - everyone who comes on-time gets an extra amount of chips, somewhere between 500-1000

#3 - fudge the blind levels so that the lower blind levels last longer during the period when late entries could come. Have them jump significantly after that period

I strongly prefer #1 because both #2 and 3 could lengthen the period of time the tournament takes to play out. #2 also isn't variable, a person who is 10 minutes late is penalized the same as someone who is 1 hour late and #3 is just ugly for blind levels.

Am I being petty? I think the long late buy-in period with no penalty is a potential whole that someone could knowingly take advantage of.

Input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Grant

90 minute late buy in is long for a game that lasts 4-5 hours. But, that is the rule you guys set so players with obligations can still make the game. One of your players sounds like he has obligations so I don't see the problem with him coming in late. If you really must do something, is roll the late buyin back to 1 hour.

Missing blinds is both an advantage and disadvantage. he may miss blinds buy he also misses the chance to win chips.

What are the blinds at the point he typically buys in? He is getting a stack of significantly less value I would imagine.

Why not just blind in late arrivals from the start? Make sure everyone understands that, after the grace period ends, their stacks come off the table.

I'm not sure that going out to a bar for drinks is an obligation. I guess it is subjective. The issue was it was meant for once in awhile, not every week.

Max would be 75/150 at the latest point you could buy in. So with a stack of 3000 he has 20 BB vs the starting 60 BB. I understand what you are saying, but it stings a little more for the players who are already down to <1500 chips or have already re-bought.

I guess it's because it could become a bit of a management issue. What if someone finds out they can play after the game has started. I thought my rough 2BB per 1/2 level missed calculation could possibly account for this.

The input above has given me some different perspective on how to look at this.

Thanks,
Grant

I think one of the best players at the game would not choose to come in late to play a short stack, even if it is a guaranteed stack (in other words, he cannot bust before that point). I would more expect a weaker player to come in late and consider it a luckbox donkament opportunity. Bottom line, I don't think this is a metagame move or anything.

We blind people in who have said they will play but are coming late. That takes care of that. If your players can't beat a dead stack of chips, they don't have much to complain about.

On the other hand, last minute RSVPs are a tough one. If you want to accommodate that--I'm not sure you should, but if you do--you could give him a stack as large as the shortest stack at the table. That is the price he pays for not getting his name down before the game.

At least the short stack won't think he should have waited until 9 to arrive. He at least had a chance to have a larger stack.

Well I don't do tourneys so my opinion doesn't count for much. Others will have very good ideas that you can consider. I do suggest that you consider some recruitment of new blood. Our cash game crew is quite large , but we encourage our regs to bring someone new in for a trial from time to time. I just recently brought in / sponsored a new younger guy that I had played with in another home game. After 3 or 4 sessions he has become one of the crew. You must consider this to help maintain your game. Stuff happens and folks come and go and sometimes come back again, but you can't just sit and let your crew dwindle away. Do some of the stuff you read here, but also get some new butts in the seats as well. Best of luck with your efforts!

+1. This is what we do, and I find it works well for us.

On time bonus chips are least dramatic choice. It's a bonus, not a penalty.

The last thing you want is to hurt the game.

You make it sound like he possibly gains a big advantage by late regging, but as the best player in the game he's just lowering his expectation by missing out on the likely 100s of chips he would be expected to make in the 70 minutes he's missing.

Well, if you approach it the wrong way then poker is no longer an obligation and it's not really important what you think as he obviously finds that to be important. So, then he starts making a choice and heads to get drinks and then head home instead of coming to play poker because you're making a big deal out of it.

Cut it to an hour and give on time bonus chips.

I've been running games for several years and have had to deal with this issue myself. (games are more 20-30 players, with about 10-20% arriving late).

When it came to penalising chips, I would just do the BB and SB from each level, so for example if first 2 levels were 25/50 50/100 and a player arrived in level 3, I would deduct 225 from their starting stack.

It didn't deter people from arriving late however.

So now Depending on the game, I will give the players that arrive on time a starting bonus of 10% (my starting stacks are usually 5-10k). In your example you might want to round up to 500 chip bonus so players on time get 3,500 chips, rebuys are 3,000 and any late players get 3,000.

You've made it clear that this player is a 'social' player and clearly doesn't really take the game seriously, or pay attention. Therefore he's not going to fussed that he's starting with slightly less chips.


When its my home game though, I don't offer any incentive or penalty for being on time or late. Starting chips is the same for every player, up until the cut off time (which is the end of the re-buy time).

As for your player base dropping from 7-8 to 5-7, have you not tried reaching out to others? Do you know any one else locally in the poker community? Maybe some one else through a friend? You might be able to find another small group of players and combine games.

... making it much more fun when he's off drinking.

The only problem I see is you need some new players to rejuvenate the game. recruit!

It's a mistake to think of the blinds as the "cost" of an orbit. Everyone has the same chance to win them back, so on average, they're a wash. They are simply a mechanism to start the action. Late arrivals are not bypassing the cost of the blinds any more than they're passing up chances to get dealt AA or catch some other good hand and win chips.

I don't like blinding off dead stacks for that reason -- it actually does turn the blinds into a cost, and redistributes the proceeds unevenly (cf: iran-contra). It artificially pumps chips into the pot at specific points in the cycle, benefiting the players seated next to the dead stack, ergo punishing the people on the other side of the table or at another table. BUT, it does seem like a convenient incentive for your specific situation. Totally standard in tournaments, too.

I've never met a player yet who think's it's +EV to miss hands. He's out drinking because he enjoys that more than the early rounds of your tournament. I say let him -- the decreased effective stack when he wanders in is penalty enough. And if he's a hollywooding tightwad, I see no reason to encourage him to play any more than he does, if that.

We just blind people out, but it's rarely more than one seat per table. The seat is already assigned to the person who is going to be late. Keep the stack there for two blind levels (in your scenario, 50 minutes) and then pick it up. If he shows after 50 minutes (assuming you announced this in the tournament prior) then he is out of luck. I don't like the idea of bonus chips or anything because it really modifies the tournament.

Oh, and get more players. Then, when this guy gets honked off after you tell him his stack is gone, then you will have someone else to replace him (which sounds like a good thing anyways).

This, and also the on-time bonus.

When I eliminated the blind-off chart for late registrants (so you get a full stack when you register late) some of my players complained about the "advantage" of missing the blinds.

I told those players: "Ok, so next week sit here on the sofa while we play, and register/start whenever you feel it is in your advantage to do so".

None of them decided to go on that path, and the complaint about "late registration being an advantage" went away.

I do use an on-time bonus chip though, which has much the same net effect but feels quite different somehow (and is far easier to manage than computing a blind-off table or actually blinding down stacks in unoccupied seats)

I like that. Should be standard for all hosts to offer this option

Count me as a fan of the 'on time bonus'.

I don't like blinding off dead stacks, or taking chips from late entrants. Just doesn't seem fair.

We don't do tournaments much but I might try that next time instead of blinding.

There is a built in penalty ... He is likely coming in with a less than average stack (assuming at least one player has busted out). I don;lt like giving on time bonuses they just aren't fair and quite honestly they discourage players from coming if they can;t get there on time. If you want to do that .... just don;t allow late entries.

I see no value in adding a penalty he gains no advantage from coming late (other than his enjoyment of his other activities). Although A rule like players coming late must bring a pizza or a six pack would not be horrible.

However i understand why you might not want players in your small home game doing this .... the easy solution is to alter the rules about how late you can buy-in, consider changing your start time. Other structure changes could discourage this as well ... If you changed to smaller buy-in smaller chip stack ... unlimited rebuys you encourage many rebuys building players stacks so a late comer is coming in very short stacked. Or if you had a high hand bonus where the high hand of the night gets a payout late comers are at a disadvantage because they miss many hands that give a chance at the high hand --- but its explictly a punishment for coming late.

How is giving an on time bonus functionally different from a late arrival penalty?

Psychologically it is often very different.

Then, how can I put this delicately, you play with idiots.



This is not a bad thing.

I tell them other people just got an intelligence bonus, and that goes over very well.

yes, but so does everyone I know. I've learned to just roll with it.

We have a large sign on the door. "No idiot poker players allowed in this room" I only marginally enforce this policy to tell the truth.