Orbit is rotating dealer 6-handed PL Razz with $100 max initial buy-in. Rebuys allowed up to the big stack. $3 Button ante with $1 bring-in.

Question 1: Player with a very low card showing wants to bring it in for the max. There is $3 button ante in the pot, and the betting player owes $1 minimum. In a PL game, what is the max bring-in $3 or $5?

Question 2: Bring-in brings it in for $1, several players call behind, and bring-in folds with no raise to him. Does he get a face-up card? If so, does he get to play his folded hole cards?

Generally in PL games, the blinds are rounded up for the sake of simplicity. Post-flop, the chips used for the blinds aren't used for betting.

In this game, it would make sense to bet in increments of $5, making the max bring-in $5.

The thing about PL games is it's generally up to the table what to do about this kind of thing. You all could say the max bring-in was $10 if you wanted. Or you can restrict it to $3 and not do any rounding on any street (tho' I don't recommend it).

Yes, he gets cards until there's a bet.

No, he does not get to play, unless the fold was a misunderstanding and it's caught immediately and his cards aren't in the muck. This is dangerous, though. If he wins, feelings will be hurt. If he puts more money in the pot and loses, he'll feel pretty crappy.

Yes, any player who should still have a hand (some guy folding with no action facing him) still gets a card. Sometimes you get a open-folder in stud games getting cards for several streets because the action slows when some scare card drops after the early betting flurry.

Your first question is either one of mechanics -- call any bet your facing, consider that part of the pot, and then raise any value up to what's in the pot. It appears to me that there's $3 in the pot, and he's facing no bet, so $3.

...or one of practicality. Most live PL games have an arbitrary value on what the first bet can be to avoid this sort of thing. PL Razz, and the bring-in must bring in for 1 or can complete to $X, where $X is any number you choose.

After that, how or if you round pot sizes is up to you.

We use exact values, and we manage just fine.

Is this thing on?

You people are sick. Pot limit Razz lol. Sick in a good way, obv.

So you are saying that the $1 bring-in is not yet in the pot? I can see it going either way.

I'd consider the bring-in to be in the pot, just like a blind.

But then again, I've never played pot limit Razz.

A bet not yet made is not yet in the pot.

In hold'em, if you want to bet the pot on the flop, you don't first make a bet and THEN raise the pot. You just match whatever is in the pot before you bet.

Since stud is unique with a forced bet, I can see the reasoning behind wanting to consider it as part of the pot if you want to make a pot-sized opening bet.

The nice thing about pot limit is that you make the rules preflop. If you want the max opening bet to be $10, with the reasoning that the forced bring-in is being raised by the person bringing it in, then that's what it is. It's entirely up to you.

When you're first, you have a choice of how much to bet, and that's anywhere from the minimum to the maximum.

The bring-in, to a completed bet of any legal size.

That bet, be it the forced minimum or not, isn't yet in the pot.

It's like there's an echo in here.

Where is this game located?!?! Amazing game... I'm on the hunt for NL Razz though

OK, that makes sense. A bring-in is different from a blind in that the player has the option of raising. No "bet" has not been made yet. And the action is still on him. So the bring-in should not be counted in the pot.

I think it is clearly a $3 max raise.

Without some sort of arbitrary rule, yes.

When our single $1 blind game plays a game best suited for limit, we get strange actions too, so there's a handful of arbitrary rules to cover it. When we move to $2-5 limit games, and the guy on your left has a single $1 blind, what are your options? How much is it to straddle?

[And it's $2-$5 instead of $2-$4 because of the chip sizes in play. Makes sense after about 2 minutes of playing...]

God forbid he post a concurring opinion. I mean, God forbid he post an alternate opinion. God forbid anyone post anything at all after God speaks, really.

For the record, I am also of the opinion that a pot-sized open would be $3.

Heh. I'm just gingerly mocking because he used to quote people who repeated something he had said, and give them guff for it.

Ha, gotcha. I can never pass up a good opportunity for a needle. Hi pot, I'm kettle.

It's okay, you were right about the God part. If it weren't for my lack of modesty, I'd be perfect.

You're so adorable. C'mere, gimme a hug.

shouldn't high card be forced to bring it in?

Good catch.

Pot Limit Razz was just one element of our entire evening of Pot Limit HORSE. Great group in SLC, UT. Can usually find 6-8 players willing to try most non-Hold'em games that are posted.

We will update the night in our next Top Pair Home Game Podcast (www.toppair.net)

He didn't say it wasn't the high card... he said "Player with a very low card showing wants to bring it in for the max."

Say they are playing 4 handed and the face up cards are 2, 3, 3, and 4. 4 is the bring in, but in all reality it is a "low card." Maybe it is a very passive game and everyone will limp which takes away the ability to bring-in re-raise, so the player wants to complete as first to act.

It's Razz, so any "high" wheel card (or 6-7-and less-often-8) might want to make a strong opening bet, especially short-handed - especially depending on the size of the antes, and how much he values not losing his bring-in.

But yes, the meat of the question remains. What are the opening player's options in the PL-stud game - which I think's been answered pretty completely.