I am in late position. UTG raised to 3x. Calling station UTG+1 flat calls and likes to see flop on seemingly every hand. I raise all in for 15-20 BB's. Original raiser calls my all-in. Calling station folds.

I table AJo. Original raiser tables A10. Guy ends up hitting a 10 on the river and it's GG for me.

Buddy ensues on telling me that I "played bingo" by going all in with AJ and (his words-->) "had no idea that you had the best hand. For all you know, he could have had AQ or AK and you would have been crushed." He continues to state that I played the hand "absolutely terribly" and that "I know nothing about poker" since I haven't been playing as long as him.

My viewpoint is this:

In roughly 70-80 hands played, AJ-off was the absolute BEST hand I had. I had no pocket pairs and I folded 80%+ of the hands I played because I was the very definition of the term CARD DEAD. I re-raised all-in knowing that more often than not, I will get at least one (sometimes both) player to fold. If the one person who ends up calling me has AQ, AK, JJ, QQ, KK or AA then it's GG and there is nothing I can do. But, if they have any pocket pair 10's or below, it's a race, or if they have any lower A, I am crushing them.

His viewpoint is that if I wanted to play AJ, I should have flat called the original raiser and a calling station and played the pot three handed. With my stack as low as it was (18 BB's I believe before the hand started), I did not see the point of playing a pot three handed and HOPE that my hand somehow connects on the flop. Math dictates that 2 out of 3 times, I will miss the flop so in that 66% time that I miss the flop, I have no idea where I stand at in the hand and I would just be pissing away chips by calling pre-flop in the first place. Furthermore, my original goal from the outset of the hand was to re-raise all-in and hope to get heads-up and hope that I have the best hand. As stated, few hands crush AJ pre-flop heads up so I went ahead and pushed all in.

Thoughts?

For me: FOLD >>>>>>>> SHOVE/CALL

It's really hard to say without knowing everybody's stack sizes and history, but I probably fold AJo here. I probably fold AJs here. I probably fold AQs here. I might call with it, but probably not, because that ensures I lose the most when I hit to a better kicker and win the least when I hit and nobody else does. What am I looking for? An unconnected J-high flop? Unlikely to happen. Pick any flop that's likely to get action.. what turn do I like?

Are there antes? That makes a difference.

What's his calling range here? Did you run into the bottom of it? Does UTG call with A9? A8? KJ? It seems like most of his calling hands either crush you or flip with you at best.

If I'm a little shorter, I might shove, but 20BBs is nothing to sneeze at, especially if there are no antes. And even if I'm short, I probably curse to myself that I wasn't first to open and still fold.

I think your friend is right that it's a bad shove, but I disagree that you should call. Fold. Find a better spot.

EDIT: Note that I generally suck at poker, and haven't even played much for over a year. So, there's that.

No Antes. Players begin the tournament with 75 big blinds. Turbo-style tournament with 10 minute blinds.

As for the players' calling range, any ace. Super loose-aggressive. It's not like I was up against a super-tight nit. He snap called my all-in.

I guess my thought process was "hey, AJ is the best hand I have seen in 70 or 80 hands. Let's try and get heads up and hope it holds. If not, I had no chance anyway as how card dead I was."

Your previous cards are no indicator of your future cards. Every hand has just as much of a chance to be AA as any other hand. Streaks are only in the past, not the future.

So maybe for your game AJ is a good shove. Do they call with Kx or Qx, too? I dunno, I'm not that great at poker strategy, I'm more about the psychology of the game. I'm a total nit with my shoving range, especially after two people have shown an interest.

Are you trying to win an argument with your friend? Give it up. You have nothing to prove. Here's what you do when someone gives you advice at the table: agree. He sounds like a bit of a douche, anyway, for talking to you like that. He isn't really trying to help you, he's trying to feel smart and important (like most of us here... waaaaaitaminute). Give him what he wants. There's nothing to gain by arguing about this with him. "Yeah, you're probably right. I was getting bored and antsy." And hey, now that you're giving him what he wants, he might share more of his own strategy with you, and more of his views of how you play. This is invaluable information, far better than "winning" one little disagreement.

I still probably fold. I like to be in charge of pots, not along for the ride. If he shoves, do you call with AJ? Do you shove yourself with AT? How about A9? Where's your line? Wherever it is, AJ probably isn't too far from it. And it's a very fuzzy line, I feel.

But it's your game, and you know best for it. Just remember you have nothing to prove to this other guy. He's not going to be swayed by your thinking any more than you're going to be swayed by his.

late in a tournament with short stacks, you're looking for spots to a) catch someone with a good hand when you have them dominated, or b) pick up blinds cheap. And of course avoid being on the losing end of those domination situations.

I don't know utg's range, but unless he's horribly spewy, AJ dominates very little of it. Most of those dominated hands fold to your shove, so you really risk a lot to win a little. At best when he calls, you're a 45/55 dog with a little dead money in the pot.

Look to steal pots when you have a good chance to take them uncontested. 2 people have already shown interest in this one. MP might not be a big concern since he's a flop-monkey and flatted, but an UTG open is worthy of respect. It's the old gap concept. To raise him, you need a hand STRONGER than what he'd open with, by quite a bit.

If you're thinking squeeze, that's wrong. Squeeze a player who raised from a stealing position, who might have had a weak hand to start with.

in summary, fold. Maybe curse the fates that a decent cards finally came when the situation ruined them, but then fold. Consider raising with 2 random cards the next time it's folded to you, instead.

Probably not the best way to think, but yeah, at best case you are in a flip, possibly even drawing to three Aces/Jacks, in which case you will need to catch up and not hold. Not sure this is the best spot, obv you ended up being in great shape PF and getting "unlucky."

This is one part of my game that I have no problem admitting I a guilty of. If it is folded to me in late position, I have no problem raising with three-high. To me, I have position and in my opinion, that's what I cherish the most in a hand.

That being said, it's also a part of my game that I have been trying to become better at. When I first started playing poker, I would raise with no thought process behind why I was raising and I was a very impatient player not understanding hardly anything about poker other than the fact of the strength of my hand. Over that time, I have done lots of studying, have become a better player ten-fold but will still occasionally play a trash hand (tho no where near as often as I used to) and look at Hold Em in a completely different way than when I first started playing poker.

That is something that I do not feel is apparent to my buddy. In my opinion, I feel that he think I always play terrible poker and still play the terrible hands and he always thinks that I will never match his "skill level" when it comes to cards.

In looking back at the hand, I looked at it as the opposite. To me, at worst, I'd be up against AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK or AQ. Those are the only hands that "technically" have me dominated.

Maybe I was a little impatient but I didn't feel the need to try and look for one of the top 6 hands in poker with 10-minute blinds and already being under 20 BB's.

Maybe I am in the minority in tournament poker when it comes to being a short stack but I am VERY against the thought of calling just to see a flop especially when one is so short stacked. If I don't hit a Jack high flop or an ace, calling to see the flop was completely pointless and I would have pissed chips away for no reason. Seeing AJ after being completely card dead was perhaps maybe a little too "premium" in my eyes after seeing the awful run of cards I had prior to it.

Let him think that. You win on the felt, not in the courtroom.

I can think of a few people who have frequently questioned my plays. I let 'em think what they want. One guy, after getting stacked due to my betting a flopped flush the entire way, asked, "How can you bet that flop?" I just shrugged and stacked his chips. I didn't tell him it was because I knew that he wouldn't believe me and would call me down the whole way.

You don't want your opponents to have an accurate view of your play, or a deep understanding of your thought process. The whole point of the game is to keep them ill informed about exactly those things.

Write out a list of all the hands you think he'd raise UTG. Now separate the hands you think he'd fold to your shove. How do these lists look? I don't know, only you do. But maybe this will be an informative exercise for all of us.

It's not the hand so much as the situation. AJo after an UTG open and a call is VERY weak.

I think you're also over-valuing skill in this kind of game. Here's how you win short-stacked turbos: get good hands, bet the hell out of them, hope they hold up. Repeat. Over the long run, this wins. In a tournament you only have a finite number of "moves" to play. Make them count.

I don't think anybody here is advocating that. Your friend is wrong about calling off 15-20% of your stack, I feel. But that doesn't make you right about shoving. The beauty of poker is that EVERYBODY can be wrong about how to play the same hand.

You're right, patience and endurance are factors in tournaments. Today I watched a woman stack off by 3-bet shoving her 12 BBs with AT into AK's raise. After she left, the entire table was baffled by her play, figuring maybe she was just tired and wanted to go home. They said she hadn't shown down a hand all night, and had been playing fairly tight and smart.

You can play great all day, but in tournaments it doesn't really matter how you played your first hand... what matters is your last hand.

And when you are completely card dead and are unable to pick up any sort of hand? I mean, in a short-stacked turbo, there are only so many options you have. Most players are very loose-aggressive and it's very hard to combat those types of players if you do not pick up a hand. IMO, it shows that me moving my chips in with the best hand pre-flop was indeed the correct play not because I had the best hand pre-flop, but because there are so few hands in a fast-structured tournament that could have me truly dominated since everyone seems to be more loose than usual. I mean, the general consensus when you are short handed at a table is that you should be a little more loose with your range of hands. Is that not also true in a fast-structured tournament where you can't afford to wait for the "nuts?"

Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's right to shove. I dunno. I'm still not clear on the average stack at the time, the stacks of the players in the pot, your history with them, the table chatter for the previous hour, or the blind schedule. Many factors to consider.

Based on what I know, I fold there. But I'm not very good at poker, so I could very well be wrong.

I try not to let "card dead" affect my play. What I got dealt the previous million hands has absolutely zero to do with what I'll be dealt the next million. What's more important is how I've been playing the hands I've gotten, and how others have been reacting to it.

My solid conviction is that you should stop trying to convince this other guy of your play. Let him criticize you. Agree with him. It's much easier that way.

Just adding my +1 to the consensus above. In absence of some superb read on UTG/UTG+1, folding is best. But I like the shove far more than the notion of calling.

I'm amused at the irony. "Friend" berates you for a bad play (and he's probably correct)...but then counsels that you should have made an even worse play instead.

The whole "argument" between he and I was that we originally had been confused where we thought I had originally four-bet all in when in fact I had just three-bet. Now that he and I are on the same page, it's more or less what has been described by everyone in the thread so far. I should have folded and waited for a better spot is his viewpoint (as are almost everyone's that have posted so far). In my view, I was possibly over-valuing AJ because of my previous run of cards and shipped it. That being said, I 100% completely agree that in the case if I had 4-bet, I was most likely an underdog if the three-bettor called me.

Could I have folded there? Of course. I have done it countless times before. In this situation, based on the players that were in the pot, I could all but guarantee that by me three-betting all in, I would get one player to fold and a 50/50 chance of the other one calling. I also estimated that if I were to be called, it would be by some sort of ace or dual "face cards" or high-connected cards in which case I would be the favorite to win.

My buddy is the type of player that loves to call and see flops because he can make a better decision to the strength of his holding (as can any player, including myself). As being a short stack in a fast-structured tournament, calling was never an option IMO. Shoving or folding and that was it. Unfortunately (and maybe even in my own twisted viewpoint of poker, lol), I was eliminated in a hand in that I was almost certain if I was called, I would be leading in. I can't help but think that if that 10 doesn't come on the river, a discussion would never have even been started about the hand and my buddy would have instead said, "hey, nice hand man. About time you win a pot."

You keep bringing this up. Stop. It is a leak. You "were" card dead. There is no way to know what you "are" now or what you will be on future hands.

And while "15-20" big blinds is short, it is by no means desperate. Being a turbo doesn't matter either - the blinds are what they are now. Unless they double on the next hand. Then you can consider yourself short.

Grunch:

With no reads on UTG, I will say it's close, but probably closer to a fold with your stack size. I don't hate a call on the button, though.

However, if UTG is a loose raiser, or will fold some of his opens to your raise, I would happily stack off here. If stacks were deeper this is playable, and if your stack was <12bb I can stack off.

I find it very, very hard to believe that you didn't have at least a couple, and more likely several, hands better than AJo in a 70-to-80 hand sample, because there'd be virtually no way you'd still be alive in the tournament. 70 hands in a home game has to take close to two and a half hours, meaning you're close to 15 levels in at this point. How could you possibly survive this long with completely unplayable trash? Unless you found the winning end of multiple big pots with suited connectors or stuff like QJs, it'd be tough to be still around on level 14 or 15 having played marginal hands 20% of the time, lose most of them, and had no top tier hands otherwise.

He's overreacting and being a bit ridiculous. If he disagrees with the play, that's fine, but this is nowhere near spew. Many would say it's a fine play. I don't mind a shove here at all, although it's risky, and if you had nearly 20xBB (you said you had "15 to 20 BB's" and then revised it to 18xBB later in the post) it really isn't necessary. Calling or folding pre would also be viable options.

Generally, when you shove here, fold/fold and you winning preflop is your best resulting scenario, because you're in bad shape against a range that would call (ATo calling is an aberration).

Tell your friend to relax.

Damn, I've been there. Way too many times. When I am not playing patiently and thoughtfully, this is the sort of situation that knocks me out of tournaments. I am card dead all night, get something like AJ and they look like bullets.

I am especially tempted when up against someone like the villain here, when I suspect he is raising light. But he is UTG, and there are other players in the hand already. It does not look like a good spot.

But looking at this long term, maybe you can use this play and the table image it gives you to profit in future games. Do it with a monster next time, when people would expect you to make a smaller raise to keep someone in the hand.

How are you able to make this statement? You're creating, in your own mind, a desirable, self serving scenario for you in which the other player automatically has a worse hand. Why can't they have a big pair or bigger Ace here? They're equally as likely to have been dealt QQ as they are 99.

I've only read your post and not the rest of the thread.

My advice to you, punch your "buddy" right in the god damned face.


Signed,

Beatts
Advice given and beers drank
Since 1973

haha. It is bad enough to be berated when you win this hand UTG with AT in this spot, but to get your money in incredibly well (whether or not it was a good play), get sucked out on, then get needled. I don't advocate violence, but I understand the sentiment.

It is worth noting that the villain played his hand even worse than OP. Maybe there is some history and level thinking that we don't fully understand. "I know he plays his hands terribly, but he knows I play my hands terribly, but he knows I know he knows I play my hands terribly."

Actually, I wouldn t argue
with your friend. I find in poker, you want people to think you make bad plays. As much as it hurts, I would let the guy talk on, don t argue or give reasons, just let him talk.

On how the hand played out, I can give reason both to both agree and disagree with your play. Depends on the info on the other players and how they play. and how they view you

Wow. Huge nits in this thread.

Not enough info to determine whether your play was "horrible" or not.

First, you didn't tell us how many players were at the table. A UTG open on a 10 handed table probably has a different range than a UTG open at a 7 handed table.

Second, you gave us no information on the original raiser (other than he called with AT). We have info on the calling station, but he's irrelevant here. I highly doubt he is ever flatting a monster trying to induce a squeeze so I expect him to fold most times. How big was UTG's stack? How active is he?

18 BB's is a PERFECT resteal stack. Those of you claiming to wait for good hands and get value from them are more than likely the same people that blind themselves off to 6 BBs being patient to find that spot and then wonder why your good hand gets cracked. Tournaments, especially in turbos like OP has described, is much less about your cards and more about your stack size and situations.

We need more info, but the fact that the guy "snap called" with AT makes me think your line was fine. Sure, there are other factors we don't know, but with the info given I would not call it "horrible" at all. If UTG is a big nit and opening UTG at a 10 handed table and he's not a big stack etc, etc, then it's probably a fold. But looking at it and saying "All you have is AJo so it's a fold" is not the way we should be thinking about things. Sure, the guy could have AA or any other hand that has us crushed. He could also have KQ, KJ, 55, and we don't have enough info to automatically assume it's a fold.

As for your buddy, why do you care what his opinion is? Next time just agree with him and say, "yeah, I suck." His advice of calling just shows he is clueless. SHOVE/FOLD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>calling.

Who knows how tight/wide UTG will open so may range here for him my be a little wide.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.477% 42.54% 03.93% 1293738372 119663364.00 { AJo }
Hand 1: 53.523% 49.59% 03.93% 1507986804 119663364.00 { 22+, A9s+, KJs+, ATo+, KJo+ }

Even if we tighten up UTG range some, we are still not a whole lot worse than 60-40 against that range.

With the 7.5 BBs already in the pot AND fold equity with 18BBs, this is a pretty good spot to shove. Sure, there are factors that would sway it to a fold, but with what we know your shove was fine.

^^^^^ +1



we don't actually want KQs to call if we shove. If he folds, we win 7.5bb right now. If he calls, we risk 18 to win 21.5 as only a 56% favorite. 44% we're -18, 56%, +21.5.

.44(-18) + .56(21.5) = +4.12bb
7.5>4.1

This is what I disagree with. He's certainly calling with AQ+ and at least some pairs. I don't see him calling with a lot of A2-AT. Maybe AT or A9, but you're solidly behind a range of 66+, A9+.

against any pair, any ace, you're only a 55% favorite, so you actually prefer he fold that entire range -- which isn't happening. Your AJo shove is now a bluff in the sense that you are hoping he folds.


agree that # of players is relevant for what it tells us of utg's open and calling ranges. If utg is loose enough, the shove is good.


I'm warming to the shove. If things are turbo/short enough that utg is folding often, it sounds high variance but +ev. The critical thing is that utg is opening with a lot of hands that he'll FOLD.

I agree I'm a huge nit.

I don't like being in a 40% situation AIPF for my tournament life, even with a tiny bit of dead money. When you consider that, in tournaments, chips you win are worth FAR less than chips you lose, this gap becomes wider.