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Old 03-23-2019, 11:24 PM   #1
sedatedwookie
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Tnmt Floor Ruling

Home Game MTT (self deal) running as close to TDA rules as possible.
No cameras.
2 players all in pre flop. Cards exposed. AT diamonds v AQ off. Flop turn and river are dealt. KJ974 (4 red/1 black) Neither player declares.

Dealer declares AQ the winner and drags both hands and the board into the muck.

This is where is gets interesting. 3 players insist the AT player made a flush.
AT player admits he didn’t see/notice but that at least 2 diamonds were present.
AW player agrees the same, 2 diamonds but doesn’t know if a 3rd was present.

What is the ruling on this hand?
Does the AT player get the pot as multiple independent players declare a flush was made?
Does the AQ player drag the pot since the AT player does not know for certain and
The cards have been drug by the dealer?
Is the hand declared dead and a reset and replayed?

Very curious what the concensus is on this.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:38 PM   #2
Suit
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedatedwookie View Post
Home Game .
Wrong forum. In a casino, I would have the dealer's ass for mucking the board and I would also check the cameras to find out the truth.

In your situation, you have to do what feels right. I would say that AQ wins since neither him nor AT guy knows if the flush was made or not.
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:43 AM   #3
The Big K
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedatedwookie View Post
Does the AT player get the pot as multiple independent players declare a flush was made?
Absent the board for verification, AT wins. In a home game, everyone should be helping to read the board to prevent mistakes like this. I'd rather see a player speak up and be wrong than to stay silent. The former, a mistake may be prevented. The latter, mistakes are missed.
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:01 PM   #4
TFing
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

I would say the flush was not there. The 3 people paying most attention are the dealer, and the 2 players involved, and not one of them saw a flush.

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Old 03-25-2019, 01:02 PM   #5
The Big K
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

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Originally Posted by TFing View Post
I would say the flush was not there. The 3 people paying most attention are the dealer, and the 2 players involved, and not one of them saw a flush.

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Never played in a home game have you. I see this kind of mistake all the time.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:13 PM   #6
TFing
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

Yes that kind of mistake happens all the time in casino as well as home. Usually it is caught before the cards are mucked / wiped. But if cards are mucked or wiped, you can not go back and the game goes on.

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Old 03-26-2019, 12:28 AM   #7
sw_emigre
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

I used to run home game MTTs (low stakes like under $50, not raked, self dealt, obv I played in the games as well). Home games call for non-TDA rulings, try though we might to stick as close as we can.

Before I give my ruling, I want to say that the speed with which other players said dealer mucked the hands would greatly influence my decision. If the non-combatants say it was pretty quick/kinda careless, in other words basic home game ****, I'm going with this:

I'd come to the table, hear everyone out, announce my ruling, which would probably be, "Look, if three people not in the hand say it was a flush, it probably was a flush, but we have no way to prove it. This is not the ruling you would get at a casino, but I'm chopping the pot. I know that will not make everyone happy, but there's no way to get this right. In the future, everyone please hold on to your cards until you agree you've won or lost the pot, and dealers are going to have to be much more careful with reading boards and not mucking cards until everyone agrees who wins. I'm going back to my beer now, please don't **** up again."

If you are playing higher stakes games, usually you have more experienced players, in which case they should know to protect their own hand, in which case I would lean towards keeping AQ as the winner...unless I had any reason to expect something going on with the dealer and/or AQ.

It's also going to matter to me who said what at the table. When I had about 30 runners, I know at least 15 of them to some extent, usually at least 20, so I knew who I could rely on and who I couldn't. There are a couple of guys I'd ignore cuz they're just not relaible enough to send a pot the wrong way, whereas there are a couple of others I would trust to read a board correctly and faster than most home game players. For example, if it wasn't my game but I was one of the 3 non-combatants in the hand saying there was a flush, I'd expect the host to know me, my experience level at poker, and give greater weight to my version of events.

At the start of every tourney, I would look at the random table draw and scope out a person at every table that I knew was reliable. As I'm giving my opening remarks, I'd say I'm the TD, but Sam at table 2 and and Jane at table 3 are acting as my assistants." Doesn't solve everything but it helped everyone involved to know who they could turn to at their table for authoritative (though not necessarily final) decisions.

Tl;dr is that we need more info about the type of game you had, and that not only is there NOT one certain answer, but there SHOULD be different rulings based on the style of game (casual or competitive, low buy in vs 'real' money, presumed experience level of the player pool, and any history with any of the players involved).
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:15 AM   #8
Garick
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

I would just like to note that every time I see the title of this thread, I read it as TNMT and get rather confused.

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Old 03-26-2019, 07:24 PM   #9
sw_emigre
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Re: Tnmt Floor Ruling

I was more of a Double Dragon guy myself.
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