At the home poker league I am in I have seen a lot of guys deal out the flop, the turn and river at once face down. For reason I just don't like it. Am I wrong to think it isn't appropriate to do this? Should I say something or just let it go since it is just a home game?

That is even worse than their point format, and highly likely to mean somebodys cheating.

Muck into the turn and river a few times. When they fix and and flip the turn, yell "I folded that card!"

I hate it when people deal the entire board face down like that. The most ridiculous part is that they do burn cards before putting the flop, turn, and river cards face down, but they clearly have no clue what a burn card is for other than they're part of the dealing ritual. Sheesh!

Once my folded cards did mix with the face-down board cards. It was an accident. Really. I swear.

It's unlikely someone is cheating. They just don't understand the reason for procedures. The problem is, it's difficult to correct without sounding like you don't trust the players. The good thing about this is that it means you're playing against unsophisticated opponents, so you likely have a bit of an edge.

If it's not your game, there's not much you can do, aside from the subversion techniques mentioned above. I wouldn't bother trying to fix it. Nobody likes that guy. I should know; I'm usually that guy.

Exactly. I play in a game where there's a variation of double-flop Omaha, and dealing all the board cards face down is standard.

It's not cheating, it's just procedural laziness.

Bothered as in annoyed? Yes. Bothered as in taking a stand? I wouldn't.

The muck-into-the-board tactic is a little passive aggressive, and could really piss them off if you have already made your views known. How good are your acting skills? They are probably half as good as you think they are.

On the two separate occasions that I've mentioned it (with different sets of characters btw), I didn't even hint at cheating being an issue. Just mentioned that having board cards face down on a smallish table could be a problem with folded cards, at it was several times both evenings (but only once by me).

Sounds like a new thread idea: "Explaining proceedure without bringing up cheating."

"Always keep the deck over the table."
"Why?"
"So we know who the dealer is."
"Isn't that what the dealer button's for?"
"Oh, um... but sometimes the button gets misplaced. And also, we don't want to accidentally use the other deck..."

Okay thanks for the advice. I will leave it be then.

Another move (maybe an angle), is to wait till you're in a specific spot where you can make a bet on the turn and state, "I'm betting $x because I saw the river already." If they believe you maybe this will let them know there are reasons not to deal like this.

I don't like to bring up cheating either, but am even more against making up fake reasons or deliberately screwing up the game to make a point.

"The correct/casino/standard way is to..."
"why is it the standard way?"
"because they have to worry about cheating, and besides...".

It's really awkward, though. There's a guy in a game I've been going to for a while who just recently started predealing the board. He's a sweetheart, and an uber-friendly game, so I haven't got up the nerve to confront him about it yet. In this case it's more bad habit than a security problem.

Yeah I don't think anyone is cheating at the home game plus we are only play for low stakes. The guy, whose house we play at, seems to be knowledge in poker etiquette, so I figured he would police it. But I guess if he doesn't I shouldn't.

Here's how you should explain it:
Turn is supposed to be dealt only after the flop action is complete because if the dealer deals it too high - card might become visible. However, if the turn is dealt after the flop action is complete that's not a problem since it would be visible anyways.
Another reason you might bring up is that when the next street is already dealt you feel a bit rushed (do not use this if you are known for playing notoriously slow lol)

Explain to the host why you don't pre-deal, and ask him to enforce standards.

Reasons:
1. Flashed cards
2. Marked deck
3. Danger of spoilt deal (cards thrown into turn/river)
any more?


or grow some balls and explain it yourself to the players.


or bet the turn and tell your opponent you saw the river and it makes your (nut) flush.

I have used an unintentionally marked card as the reason for using burns. People have made a joke of it, because our cards stay fairly pristine. On the other hand, no one would want to stop burning. People are creatures of habit.

We keep using very new and rotated Plastics (Copags and Italian brands) so the marked card problem is moot. The exposing and mucking problem was addressed by our regular poker procedures nit/prick head reg some time ago (so I don't have to do it) and that ended that type of possible problem. If you are using worn decks, have poor dealers, and semi careless muckers you should address this situation very soon IMHO.
PS what I really hate are the folks who lay down the deck and then grab one card at a time for burns, flops and so on without using the other hand to steady the deck. Asking for trouble there!

Have a few people who do this in my game, probably not a coincidence that they're some of the weakest players. I agree that it's tilting but unless someone actually mucks into their setup don't do anything and continue stacking their chips. If someone mucks into the setup by all means let them have it and hope they deal it right from then on.

Watch if the dealer wins these hands, and more importantly, who wins when they deal like this. Could be simple cheating or complex cheating.

If you want to make a point, everytime you muck your cards aim them at the flop/turn/river and try to cause confusion. Then when they ask you why you keep doing it, just tell them if they dealt properly it wouldn't happen.

Another reason against this practice is when the dealer forgets he already dealt the turn and river, then re-deals the turn and people act based on it. This has happened in home games I have played in more than once, and makes for a messy situation. Usually only a few guys do this so it is not always noticed by the other players. Typically I try to explain this reason to the guys who pre-deal, and about 25% of the time they stop doing it.

I always find the 'just tell them that' advice to be bad, because most of the time you gonna get an answer that you didn't expect, then you''ll be back to square one facing the same problem.

Instead, It is best to explain why things are the way they are with clear explanation like 2p2jim said earlier.

I was a fish who made the mistake of dealing a few times this way (something I learned from other fish doing the same). The other players dealt with it quite well. They said "I don't like it when you deal it that way, I find it confusing" It was done with. No big deal.

Exactly.

But then again, I don't really think burn cards are needed nowadays anyway, so I don't really care if they adhere to their silly rituals.

Note that some games that deal deep into the deck don't have burn cards, so what's the point really? (For example, draw games like Badugi or 2-7, where constantly burning cards just.... um.... burns too many cards.)

That's an actual problem, it if you want them to quit, then simply explaining this should stop it.

How are you burning any more cards in triple draw or badugi than HE?

I disagree. One dirty little poker secret is that the cards are usually marked. I don't care if you replace your paper decks every hour or use the best plastic cards and handle them very carefully, cards are too fragile to remain perfectly identical. Nobody wants to talk about this because it just encourages people to look more carefully and try to take advantage.

The marks are generally too subtle to read from across the table and the various proper procedures will reduce the value of the marks dramatically. One of the most important, though, is burn cards. The dealer especially has a terrific view of the top of the deck for a long time before each street is dealt. Giving him open knowledge of the next card out is very very bad for game integrity.

Burn cards also serve as a huge disincentive to deliberately mark the cards -- marks would be much more common if burns were not standard.

I think if you look carefully, you'll see that a card is burned for every street in these games. You don't need a burn before every player gets cards. The burns are actually extremely helpful in these games for tracking/indicating how many draws are left. Therefore we burn a card even if everyone stands pat on a street.