Last night, I was at a home game where I've played about a dozen times. One player likes to straddle from under-the-gun a lot. The first eight or so times he straddled, he would announce his straddle as he put his 2 BBs in. At some point he stopped saying anything and just put his chips in.

At our game, we play with two sets of cards. One is shuffled by the SB while the other is in play. Due to our positions at the table, I was SB while the straddling player was UTG. The first three or so times when he started making the silent straddle, I was busy gathering the cards from the last hand for shuffling. So I was looking at the cards, not at him. Therefore when he started straddling silently, I would look up after gathering the cards and see his 2-BB bet in front of him. I didn't know if he had looked at his cards yet or exactly when the bet was placed. So I asked him three or so times, "Is that a straddle?", and he affirmed.

Then I got annoyed about having to ask, and I said, "Could you just say when you straddle?" His answer was, "I don't have to say anything!"

So I have two questions about this. First, what is the rule on this? Does the straddle require a verbal commitment? Of course, I know that it is my responsibility to be aware of what is going on at the poker table. But I see this as a very big exception because I was distracted every time by having to gather the last deck for shuffling. My belief is that at a casino, the dealer would announce the straddle so no one has to ask. And no player would be distracted by shuffling.

The second question is about the etiquette of his reply. I found his answer to be really asinine. This is a player that I usually get along with well. But I found his answer to be very rude. Only if I had asked him to do something against the rules should I get such a rude reply.

What do you think?

You're a jerk, someone is throwing free money at the table and you're complaining because you can't be bothered to pay attention.

Also, you asked him if he straddled, he said yes and then you get pissy with him. No wonder he got annoyed, I would be irritated too.

Just confirm it every time (politely, not passive aggressively), or ask the dealer to announce the straddle. Or, you know, since he does this all the time and is sitting two seats from you, pay attention during the deal.

I am guessing from your post (and his response) that you were berating him for not verbally declaring (which he is correct, this is not usually required) and he responded to your irritation.

And Were is correct, why are you tapping the glass?

It's not possible for me (or I would think anyone) to gather the cards from the last hand, being careful not to sweep up any cards from the next deal, without looking. Therefore, I was looking at the cards I was gathering, and this just coincided with his straddle bets.

I was paying attention. But I was paying attention to another responsibility at the table.

I was not berating the player in question. I politely asked him to announce his straddles. He was the one who got pissy.

Off topic, but is the SB shuffling the cards he will be dealing the next hand?

You are saying that you can't gather the cards and glance up before his second card is dealt?

There are about 23 different ways to solve this issue non-confrontationally, you chose the one way that got under the skin of another player, then are very defensive when posting about it, and wonder why most of us believe that you could have handled it better?

So, you wanted to ask about rules, but none of us here know your house rules. You wanted to ask about etiquette, so here it is: It is against rules and etiquette to be asking about previous action when action is not on you. This can be seen as trying to influence action and violate OPTAH. Wait until action is on you, and if it is still relevant, ask him if he straddled or opened.

It would require a conscious effort and a change of habit to time that glance right while not slowing down the game. The cards from the last hand have to be gathered rather quickly so that they're not interfering with cards and chips from the current hand.

"Then I got annoyed about having to ask, and I said, "Could you just say when you straddle?""

Yes, at this game the SB shuffles in order to prepare for the next deal. I've seen the shuffling handled other ways though.

I wouldn't be a very good poker player if I let my voice reflect my emotions.

you posted this in CCP, so I'll give you a casino response: in general, the dealer should announce the straddle during the deal. so you would ask the dealer if it's a straddle once it gets around to you, if it wasn't already clear to you.

but even if the dealer doesn't, it is up to the players to pay attention - the dealer not announcing it doesn't mean the straddle isn't live. on the other hand, if the dealer didn't see it, and the straddling player doesn't make sure the dealer knows it was a straddle and thinks it was just a normal raise, or doesn't know for sure that the player didn't look at his cards before "straddling", it may sometimes be ruled to be just a normal (min) raise. So really everyone has incentive to make sure that it is clear what happened.

having said the above, your primary complaint seems to be that you were making the deck for the next deal at the time, and there is no casino dealer who runs the game to ask, which is basically just a home game problem. So I am going to move this thread to the home game forum.

So when the dealer puts action on him, does he act or does the next guy act?

Another case of a guy asking for opinions but then arguing endlessly when he doesn't have his point of view validated. Hey OP, just title your thread "Please either agree with me or don't post", then everyone knows not to waste their time.

FWIW where I play dealers try to announce straddles but if they miss it, they refuse to confirm if the action was a straddle or not and the straddler may decline to confirm if it was a straddle or a raise.

One, players are not required to verbally announce their action if their physical behaviour is clear, so you're wrong by usual poker rules. Two, this player is throwing money away and creating action, so you are wrong by the metric of a winning player who should encourage this type of behaviour.

Home games can be chaotic enough as it is without straddles. If straddles are allowed, then the straddler should be announcing it. It is not hard to say one word.


On a side note, the SB should not be shuffling for his/her own deal.

We always pass the cards to the player on our right for cutting before dealing with the plan that that greatly diminishes the chance that the shuffler could manipulate the cards.

The responsibilities of the dealer, other than distributing the cards, are shared among all the players, whether it's his turn to deal or not. That is, things like making sure the pot is right, advising a player to act, enforcing the rules, etc. is shared among the players. Regarding the rules, a little more authority is given to the host because he's the host and a little bit more knowledgeable.

In any case, in the situations I'm describing, the action had not returned to the BB or UTG at the times I asked for clarification. The action was still on the UTG+1 when I sought clarification.

As far as the claim that I was in violation of the rule that one should not ask about previous action when the action is not to me, I view my request for clarification to be for the benefit of the WHOLE table. We usually have a lot of conversation at the table, and without a professional dealer, we have players who sometimes misplay in other ways - thinking they're BB when they're actually UTG and putting out chips blind, not realizing that someone raised, etc.

prob not necessary to clarify his pre-flop action if you havent seen him min-raise pre-flop from other positions.

You misunderstand my question. When the dealer indicated that it was UTG's turn to act (he acts first), did he act, or say that he straddled? Or did the dealer automatically go to UTG+1? Either one would indicate whether or not UTG had straddled or not, and both should occur after you have had a chance to gather the card.

As per your second comment, it doesn't matter if you are asking a clarifying question for the good of the table, it can still influence action and is inappropriate when you action is not to you. Poker is a game of observation, and asking questions 'for the table' is basically saying that you are trying to influence play by sharing or emphasizing information.

Neither the dealer, nor anyone else stepping in for the dealer, was saying anything. As I mentioned in my original post, this happened three or four times before I asked him to announce his straddles. The way I remember these hands going is as follows, with a 4-player table:

1. The cards from the last hand are pushed by others or gathered by me (SB) to within arms' length. Simultaneously, the deal for the next hand is begun by the player on my right.

2. At around the time the first card has been dealt to everyone, there are no chips committed by UTG. At this time, I glance down to gather the cards to be shuffled into a bunch that I can pick up with two hands. This takes about 4 seconds, during which my eyes are on these cards, not on the players. During this time UTG is silent.

3. When I look up from the cards I'm about to shuffle, there are 2 BBs in front of UTG. At this point, UTG+1 or may not have acted and the dealer may or may not have acted (depends on which hand I'm recalling).

4. As the action is either to me or will be to me very soon and because I don't know whether UTG's chips are a min raise or a straddle, I ask of UTG, "Is that a straddle?" Whether other players besides UTG know this or not is uncertain. Given that there was no verbalization, it would depend on whether they were watching UTG.

5. He confirms that it is a straddle.

After this sequence has repeated itself three or four times, I become annoyed and ask UTG to announce his straddles verbally. He replies, "I don't have to say anything."

I concede. there is absolutely no way that anyone could ever, through observation of the action, tell if UTG straddled. there is no way you could glance up when the deal is complete and see if UTG acts first or UTG+1 acts first. You are 100% correct in asking questions out of turn, rules and etiquette be damned. And you are 100% correct in asking that the UTG verbally declare his action, which I have never seen required anywhere. You are absolutely the victim here, and UTG is being unreasonable. Tapping the galss and angering a guy who is happily making -EV moves is absolutely the right thing to do, and you are 100% correct that you were polite and unoffensive, even though you admit you were annoyed, these posts read like you were annoyed, and UTG reacted like you were annoyed.

My bad for questioning you. Your original opinions have been affirmed. UTG owes you a big apology for silently placing action and insisting that it is OK to silently place action. What a jerk.

OP--

I haven't bothered to weigh in because it doesn't seem like you've been very willing to take some of the crititiques to heart. In fairness to you, some of it has been, well, I can see why you may have become defensive. But the unnecessary bluntness doesn't make any of it wrong.

Home games aren't casino games. Every one will have a different vibe, and it matters a great deal if we're talking about a home game where when someone refers to quarters, they mean 25 cents or $25 chips. Or whether the players are friends, poker buddies, or random invites. Or whether the game is raked (making it more like an underground game than a home game). You didn't provide these types of details, and all of that matters.

I say this as both a long-time host of a casual home game, and as a player in a variety of home games with different stakes: I can envision only a very limited set of circumstances where you weren't too far out of line. By and large, home games are much more loosey-goosey than professional games, and if that doesn't work for you, you need to speak with the host privately to see if either the game can be run differently, or if you need to not play there.

We have a guy in my casual non-regular game, that is annoying for many reasons. He straddles a lot and encourages others (with limited success) to do the same.

It's safe to assume that he's straddled, and often, but not always, he mentions it along the way. There is still one OMC that waits until it's his turn and confirms that it's a straddle. He laughs to himself, and folds, and we've all wasted another 20 seconds.

Mentioned earlier, in a casino setting, the dealer should announce it.

Also mentioned earlier, is that if you are going to ask, you can/should wait until it's your turn to act. You don't need to understand or agree why, but accept from many others that that's the correct time to ask. You can ask the dealer, the player, or the table if you like. When it's your turn to act, you should be told what options the players yet to act still have.

Somewhat related, are 2BB raises (not straddles) from UTG common at the table? They aren't where I've played.

I guess you'll do your best to make sure you aren't SB to his UTG moving forward.

Re: SB shuffling and then dealing (after a cut). My usual games do the same thing, despite my suggestions otherwise, especially since a cut is sometimes declined (I self cut if declined). The dealer is usually good about waiting for the cards to be gathered before pitching, but if you find yourself rushed, then leave the other cards out and get settled, or ask that dealer (sitting next to you) if they could wait a minute for you to gather the cards.

Two points:

1. You really want to know if he put in the straddle “blind” or looked at his cards first? This is the foolish part since you said he literally does it every time. What does it matter if he’s not doing it selectively, and even if he’s doing it as an angle it’s a silly, -ev move.

2. Your self-dealt game procedure is against the very rules of nature! The dealer from the previous hand (aka the cutoff) is the person who gathers the cards and shuffles. The SB cuts. There is no other way in a just and rational universe.