I play in a few home games in the LA area. One of them is a $5/$10 PLO/ $25/25 NL type which gives me a 10% rake back on losing sessions. During the day the game has a total bet cap on the plo rounds (this cap is removed at night as there are more straddles and it plays more like 10/10/25). The rank this game is known to be 5% capped at $100 per pot not including tips to the dealers or servers or security.

In a recent session, a dealer was seen dropping $125 on the river. It was presumed he dropped oft and ott as well (there is no rake if a hand is taken down pf). When I asked him what the max rake was he said $150 per pot. I didn't want to make a scene in front of the other players but told him he needed to confirm with the host as my understanding was $100.

I currently have a balance owed to this house but told the owner I needed to ask a few friends what should be done as I don't think I should be paying the entire amount owed. My reason for this is that I agreed to play in the game with an understanding that I would be given 10% back on losing sessions. In the last 3 months I have had several losing sessions, each of them being dealt by this same guy (not the entire time as he needs breaks, there are usually 3 or 4 dealers that work in shifts).

When (separately away from the table and players) I told the owner this happened he said this was the only dealer at his game that thought the max rake was $150; the rest of the dealers knew the correct amount, and have been dropping appropriately. He also said this same dealer works at 2 other home games where the rake is the same and that I should ask the other guys about this dealer. He said the dealer made a mistake by telling us the rake was $150 because he was accidentally thinking about a different game he deals with a higher rake. He offered to fire the dealer and "make sure it doesn't happen again).

I am friends with the owner and he also happens to be a business client of mine. The only other factors that may be important are that up until last year, I was a regularly losing player (in his game, I am still small, loser this yr), I often play 12 hr plus sessions, consistently tip big for the girls, and play more pots than half the table (9 or 10 full ring) every session. What would you do in my shoes?

Some of my ideas
1. Pay full amount and never go back (losing a friend and client)
2. Review my losing sessions at this structure/stakes and calculate 5% more rakeback on those losses to be deducted from what I owe (150/pot is 50% more than 100, 15% is 50% more than 10%)
3. Same as 2 above but give owner credit that other dealers know the rake and multiply the proper rake back by some fraction like 1/2 or 1/3 (as they always work in shifts)
4. Assume dealers get paid out a % of rake as tip/bonus and not pay anything back
5. Something else

The owner thinks I am making this a big deal to avoid paying a $10k debt, which I am not. I am looking to come up with a fair resolution to a messed up situation. I would really appreciate honest feedback as this guy is my friend. I debated posting this, as I thought maybe there would be a bias towards the player instead of the house. I ask that you try to be as objective as possible knowing I am not looking for ammo to stiff the game, rather a well thought out solution from a party that was not involved.

Over-raking is a serious offense. You are definitively owed a rebate. They are raking $10,000 every 5 hours. Hard to beat that rake. They need you way more than you need them. Talk to the owner. I am sure he will give you a deal. Then negotiate a better deal for future play. Cash players are very valuable to these high rake games.

It is hard to know where to begin, but . . .

Hero has a rake back deal but somehow doesn't seem to have been regularly collecting at the end of the sessions. Make me wonder why that might be since the amounts of money in the rake back could be enough to bother. Hero notes he is a losing player so you might think he would be well acquainted with getting a little money back at the end of the session

Given the house doesn't seem to have much oversight on rake being taken, I wonder how they can even figure what to pay on 10% rake-back deal. It seems really unlikely they count out the rake anywhere the players can see it. I have a hard time imagining the house setting a 10% rake back figure and thus disclosing how much the rake is . . . and it is enormous.

Hero should be "hair on fire" alarmed that the house is over raking. The 5%/$100 max rake is a win rate disaster, but if the house is occasionally pulling $50 to $250 extra rake off a big pot, then things are truly out of control. Shame on Hero for not watching the drop. That is a lot of money dropping each hand for it to go unnoticed.

Just making a guess here, but it seems like the rake is something like $2,000/hr for the table or $200 to $300 per hour per player (depending on how many people are at the table). Hero might ponder if that much rake could explain much of his losses. -10bb per hour in rake is tough to overcome.

I have to wonder what kinds of people might be running a game like this. Somehow I think Hero is going to learn a harsh and painful lesion if he wants to avoid paying his tab.

Lastly, I can't help but think that Hero's post might be mostly or totally fantasy. There is a lot that doesn't add up.

If this situation is real, my advice is pay the money, never go back and go play in a legal cardroom if you still want to play. This is LA, there are ample opportunities to play in a regulated card room and not resorting to a place like Hero describes in his original post.

DrStrange

Maybe they call it "rakeback" but it's really 10% of losses that are returned.

Way out of my league, but pretending things are the same 100x higher than I would regularly play

5% rake capped at 10BB (PLO) or 4BB(NL). The casino's I frequent drop less than 4BB max. I understand home games rake more, but thought the higher stakes raked lower BBs, or went to time rake.

As mentioned by another posted, tough to imagine beating the rake, even if you are beating the table. I'm sure there are 'perks' that would be worth the amount of rake, but WOW, how many hooker and how much blow could a player go through in a night?



It just occurred to me that dropped OTF and OTT probably mean that they set aside rake OTF and OTT, not that $125 was removed OTF, with another $125 removed OTT and a 3rd $125 removed OTR.

I'm not the guy that pays the most attention to casino rake, and I don't play in raked home games, but FFS I'm going to do so if I start playing raked home games.

I'm not sure what proper protocol is at a raked home game. In a casino, I'm asking the dealer to call the floor. If that's inappropriate in a home game, then I'm getting up and talking to the floor/host pretty soon.




What was your understanding for when you would get that 10% back?

If the house and I agree that I'm owed 10% back, then I'm planning to pay the 90% that I owe.

Without a clear agreement, you might be getting shorted on your 10% back, if you had a winning session along the way. For example, if your end of session totals individually add up to a lost 15k, and won 5k, and your net is 10k lost, then they may expect you to pay 9k. But actually, you should owe 8.5k, getting 10% back on the 15k lost.

Unless your sessions with this dealer are completely out of whack with the sessions, you may simply not be good enough to beat the rake.




OK. What else do you want done? I'm assuming that the correct max rake will be dropped moving forward.

Uh oh. That may be a problem. I can only assume you knew the risks when you started.

I'll have to assume that these losses are relatively small enough to count as a business expense.

It's going to sound flippant, but if I were you I'd tighten up, play better (winning) poker and tip closer to appropriate for the girls.


1. I don't like giving up a friend and client. Hope it doesn't come to that.
2. Don't like it. But could be a starting point for negotiations.
3. Better, could be where the negotiations end.
4. Hate it. I'm working on the assumption that you lost fair and square. You owe something and should pay.
5. If you know your individual session wins/losses, I'm going to calculate the rakeback on the losses. I suppose that you could ask for 15% rakeback,and work down (not lower than 10%).

You wouldn't be the first guy ever to look for a loophole to get out of a debt. I hope that isn't the case.

Fair resolution would require knowing the actual agreement. If the owner agrees that he offered 10% losses back, then paying 9k should be expected. If you can show you lost more (see above), then maybe you owe less.

If the owner was willing to extend 15% back on losses, and accept 8.5k, I think that's the best you can get. Unless there is paperwork/records, then maybe you can get an even better deal.

Good Luck.

Don't have to post it here, but I'd consider your net annual revenue from him. Rather than negotiating hard, it may be better to pay off and then raise your fees in three months.

Rake in this game is out of control already, and over-raking is not really different than a player shorting the pot. It's a very big deal.

Large debts in underground games should be scary. I'd be tempted to:

1. make a big deal out of the over-raking,
2. pay the debt, so your motivation can't be directed that way,
3a. get a rakeback or %losses deal that makes sense and is paid out by session.
3b. if your client revenues are higher, maybe raise prices instead.