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Old 07-23-2015, 11:26 PM   #1
Mr.Jones
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Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Any resources out there so I know what to look for ?

*I'm sure this will get moved to the home game forum, but there is 20x the traffic here so hopefully it doesn't.
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Old 07-23-2015, 11:36 PM   #2
Lattimer
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Traffic doesn't factor into which forum is more appropriate. Sorry.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:44 AM   #3
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Are you thinking home game = raked game run as a for profit business filled with strangers?

Or are you thinking home game = a dozen people getting together twice a month for a fun night of poker as a social gathering?

DrStrange

PS 20x traffic doesn't mean much if the folks know less than nothing about home poker.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:51 AM   #4
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Jones View Post
Any resources out there so I know what to look for ?
http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...aters-part-one

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...heaters-part-2

Quote:
*I'm sure this will get moved to the home game forum, but there is 20x the traffic here so hopefully it doesn't.
Lucky for you it did!

Buzz
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:26 AM   #5
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Yeah as DrStrange posted , it is really important to know what you think a "home game" means. The venue, stakes and types of players really make a difference in serious replies to your OP.
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:45 AM   #6
Mr.Jones
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

A professionally run raked card room, with people I don't know or am not close with.
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:01 AM   #7
Grima21
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Are you trying to deter or recognize cheating? I think there is a very big distinction.

And whether this is proprietor monitoring a raked game or a host monitoring a home game makes the biggest difference.

In the first, the proprietor is likely not playing and usually providing a professional dealer. It is more difficult to cheat, but the stakes may make it more desirable. Sadly, in a raked game, the person most likely to be "cheating" is the guy that's running the show and not playing, but that's a whole different discussion.

In the second, The host is playing and it is self-dealt. It is relatively easy to cheat, but the best deterrent is the low stakes.
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:26 AM   #8
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Jones View Post
A professionally run raked card room, with people I don't know or am not close with.
If the room is "professionally run", then the proprietors should be expending some significant effort in monitoring the game and providing a trusted dealer.

Are you concerned that the person or persons that are running the game are potentially cheating or that the other players at the table are cheating (by manipulating the cards), or are you worried that the other players are colluding against you since you are an unknown player?

As an aside, I have never actually played in a "professionally run raked card room" before that wasn't a legal establishment. It may appear professional when you first go there, but a long-term, well-run game is actually a very rare occurrence.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:31 PM   #9
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

There is a 100% chance the raked game is going to take a big chunk of your money and drop it down the hole. It isn't cheating unless they over rake but it is going to be $100+ every night even at an honest room (and not all are). This drain is much more significant than the off chance that someone is cheating and you happen to be the victim.

So you want to protect yourself? Go find real home games, the ones without rake beyond a collection for the pizza delivery. Be good for the game. Prosper.

DrStrange

PS if you are going to be cheated at a true home game, the most likely problem will be someone shorting the pot. A second problem isn't exactly cheating - but a sloppy self dealt game will have some dealers who flash cards accidentally especially the burn cards.
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Old 07-24-2015, 12:53 PM   #10
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Yes the rake at these kind of venues is usually so big that the operators seldom cheat or allow/ignore it because it threatens their "cash cow". They don't want to turn off players or have confrontations that might lead to an intervention by local authorities. If it becomes apparent that you are a weak player with deep pockets (A Whale) , then some colusion might develope. You are not talking about a home game that this forum mostly concerned with, but simply a raked card room in a home. There is no actual forum for that, so the mods let it be included here with a few restrictions.
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Old 07-25-2015, 03:38 AM   #11
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Search for a book called "How to cheat at poker". I posted a link to it from popular website earlier, but I guess that isn't allow (post was deleted).
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Old 07-27-2015, 10:27 AM   #12
MidniteToker
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Jones View Post
Any resources out there so I know what to look for ?
Many. Two of the best you'll find:

David Malek - Cheating at Hold'Em: The Essentials (DVD)
Steve Forte - Poker Protection (book)

There's a lot more but those two will give you pretty much all the education you need. If you want your mind blown, buy the DVD set of Steve Forte's Gambling Protection. He has some of the best hands you'll ever see.

And that "How to Cheat Your Friends at Poker" book from Penn? Forget about it. Get the two above and don't even hesitate.
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:15 AM   #13
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

I worked at a 'home game' that was a for profit operation. The rule for taking rake was 'take as much as you can get away with' and the unofficial rule was 'after 1am all rake goes into the time box.' There were never any complaints from the players and the owner either didn't care or didn't know about the tokes. I didn't stay there long but i made mad bank when I was there.

Not my proudest moment but something you need to be aware of about these types of places.

They also are extremely intolerant of players cheating. Like beat the **** out of intolerant, so that shouldn't really be a concern unless you're playing nosebleed stakes.

Rulings tended to favour players who were good for the game instead of nits, even if it wasn't the proper ruling.
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:58 PM   #14
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Jones View Post
A professionally run raked card room, with people I don't know or am not close with.
This is exactly the opposite of a home game...
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Old 07-30-2015, 03:04 PM   #15
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
This is exactly the opposite of a home game...
Not really. These "home games" are the new (legal) games popping up in most places. Some places dont just straight up take a rake because it's illegal, but they will charge a membership fee to join their "club" and/or take a "cover", or "sell" you drinks.

However, asking this question is basically "how to protect yourself from cheats in an underground poker room" and the answer is you really cant. In a legit casino you have help. In an underground room you generally do not.

As far as the reasoning that card rooms will do everything to protect their customers from cheats, I think that's generally wrong. The house is more afraid of being robbed/raided, and losing customers for every reason that isnt related to actual cheating. If an actual cheater is caught, I dont think the regulars at the card room will refuse to come back because of it. Using a shiner or doing a dirty shuffle isnt the same thing as being a Super User or running a ponzi.

In a real home game everyone more or less knows each other so there is some accountability there.
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Old 07-30-2015, 03:46 PM   #16
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

The way he described it, it sounds like a legal casino. He said nothing about it being illegal, or in a house.
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Old 07-31-2015, 04:32 AM   #17
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
The way he described it, it sounds like a legal casino. He said nothing about it being illegal, or in a house.
Not really.

Maybe it's legal. Maybe it isnt. People try to skirt gambling laws all the time. Some are successful, some are not.

It doesnt have to be in an actual house, just in a "private dwelling".

Look at Dr. Strange's post and ask yourself why that post would be necessary if the line between home game and casino is so clear.

The OP would not ask this way if he was in an actual casino. If you have a suspicion in a casino you can call the floor for basically anything, and in this case they can check the cameras. In a "A professionally run raked card room, with people I don't know or am not close with." this is probably not possible since it is not an actual "casino".

The OP wants indicators for detecting cheats in these underground card rooms that are operating as "home games".
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Old 07-19-2020, 01:20 AM   #18
Mr.Jones
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

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Originally Posted by UItra View Post
The OP wants indicators for detecting cheats in these underground card rooms that are operating as "home games".
Correct
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Old 07-19-2020, 03:07 AM   #19
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Jones View Post
Correct
Thanks for your 5 year late confirmation.
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:24 AM   #20
Garick
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Re: Protecting yourself from cheats at home games.

Yup. And in the meantime, do a search on the word "cheat" ITF, and you'll find lots of stories.

CLIFFS: Literal cheating is much more common in self-dealt home games and is usually once per round when the cheater is dealing. Collusion is much more common, and is found in basically all poker environments.
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