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Old 06-03-2017, 03:52 PM   #1
BigBlue56
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Premature River - discussion of options

The regular weekly spread limit, dealers choice game. I am not the host. I am acknowledged as the rules guy, at least as far as explaining what would be the most likely rulings in actual card rooms.

Game is really crazy pineapple. Texas Hold'em with 4 cards dealt initially, and each player discards one card after the flop, and another after the turn.

We pickup action as the turn card is dealt. Players left in the hand make their 2nd discard, and before there is a betting round, the dealer burns and puts out the river.

Immediately brought to the attention of the dealer and discussion ensues.

My understanding of the rules says that the river card does not necessarily play, but will get shuffled back into the deck, so that it 'may' be the river card.

2 players wanted the river card to play (it paired the board), 1 player wanted it not to play, but to shuffle it back in. At least one other suggested voiding the hand, with variations on what to do with the pot and who to redeal back in.

Home poker. With no chief decision maker, the 3 most vocal players agreed to a coin flip for the decision. I thought it was an awful way to decide, made my position clear and let the discussion continue. The coin was flipped, the coin dictated that the card played and then a majority decided that a redeal would be best, despite a couple of objections.

Dealers ante stayed in the pot (all our games are dealers ante, no blinds).
Players left with cards took back the last bet.
Players without cards left the bets as a pot sweetener.
All players were dealt into the 'makeup hand'.

The winner of the 'makeup hand' was the same guy who would have won the original hand. He did get a juicier pot, and the game moved on without further discussion about it.


No real questions. Just wanted to share the story. It's a good reason to have a specific set of rules agreed to in advance, as well as a person (or ordered group of people) to make decisions.

Our game is strange, for many reasons. We enjoy playing, enjoy the laughing and don't want anyone leaving upset. We've moved the game out of a house, into an old semi-public lounge location. The home owner got guidance on some decisions (invite list, stakes, buy-in).

There have been a couple of hands with some drama recently, and I think it's based mostly on the lax set of rules. I don't think there is anyone actually upset, but I know some feelings were at least temporarily hurt.

It may be a good time to suggest a bit stricter gameplay, to avoid escalation.

Comments always welcome.
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:51 PM   #2
jzpiano
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Re: Premature River - discussion of options

What rules do you use? If you don't know then that's the overlaying issue and ultimately the first place you should start. If you do, and I'm going off the assumption that you use RROP then this is an easy solution, consult the rule book. If you did that you would see that your hunch was correct and that the river should be shuffled back in and a new river dealt (no burn). No player should ever have a choice on whether or not they get to keep a river, similar to if a card gets flipped on the deal. Too many chances to angle. Get your rulebook in order, stick to it, and ultimately people will enjoy the game more.

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Old 06-05-2017, 12:32 AM   #3
sw_emigre
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Re: Premature River - discussion of options

Your game always sounds like a blast, but I prob would have had a seizure if I'd been there that night. Basically that was FUBAR every step of the way.

In theory I'm with you, in that a proactive approach to determining rules would be best. But for the most part, there hasn't been any serious damage yet, and I'm assuming most people won't want to change until there is. I'd discuss possibly adding some more strictness in private with the host and 1-3 key players. Once they have agreed, then you know you can make a public presentation and you'll have the buy-in of the important people to get most of your agenda passed. I used to be a community organizer, and this was how we got stuff done. Get a couple key leaders on board in private, then you can weather the public blowback from loud but ultimately less influential people.

But damn, if I was in that pot and the ruling went down as played, and then was overturned anyway, eeeeeeeks.
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Old 06-05-2017, 04:12 PM   #4
chillrob
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Re: Premature River - discussion of options

That is pretty crazy that they all "agreed" to do a coin flip to see if the card played or not, but then decided to void the hand. And void the hand and give some people money back, but leave some money in the pot? Bizarre, hard to believe that anyone went for that plan.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:33 PM   #5
BigBlue56
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Re: Premature River - discussion of options

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzpiano View Post
What rules do you use? If you don't know then that's the overlaying issue and ultimately the first place you should start. If you do, and I'm going off the assumption that you use RROP then this is an easy solution, consult the rule book. If you did that you would see that your hunch was correct and that the river should be shuffled back in and a new river dealt (no burn). No player should ever have a choice on whether or not they get to keep a river, similar to if a card gets flipped on the deal. Too many chances to angle. Get your rulebook in order, stick to it, and ultimately people will enjoy the game more.

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Thanks. For a long time, I'm the rules guy. I know RROP, read 2+2 (hope they don't) and have been playing well over 20 years with lots of different groups and 'tweaked' rule sets. I put the proper ruling out there, the group declined it. Perhaps it's my fault for not arguing stronger, but the group tends to be a 'cross that bridge when we get to it' type.





Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_emigre View Post
Your game always sounds like a blast, but I prob would have had a seizure if I'd been there that night. Basically that was FUBAR every step of the way.

In theory I'm with you, in that a proactive approach to determining rules would be best. But for the most part, there hasn't been any serious damage yet, and I'm assuming most people won't want to change until there is. I'd discuss possibly adding some more strictness in private with the host and 1-3 key players. Once they have agreed, then you know you can make a public presentation and you'll have the buy-in of the important people to get most of your agenda passed. I used to be a community organizer, and this was how we got stuff done. Get a couple key leaders on board in private, then you can weather the public blowback from loud but ultimately less influential people.

But damn, if I was in that pot and the ruling went down as played, and then was overturned anyway, eeeeeeeks.
Thanks. It really has been a lot of fun with the current gang. There have been a couple recent hiccups, but in general, we're playing for such low stakes, that nobody is going crazy.

Yeah, sorry to report that I was dealing, in a departure from the usual games I call.

Yes again, they won't want a rulebook, until there is a serious problem. I'll probably float the idea of a 'semi-official' rule book to the group when we assemble for the next game. If it looks like it has the support of those key guys, then I'll start the Herculean task of writing procedures for mistakes in games that sometimes have little room for mistakes.

Flop was 9s6s2d. A small bet called 6 ways. Turn was a Th. Players discarded and then I burned and turned the river Td. Player C was adamant about it playing, he had T2. Player D also wanted it to play, he had the case T. Player F wanted it discarded, as he had 96.

If I'm a player in the pot, I'm arguing for the 'proper' ruling, regardless of my holding. As I had folded, I let them sort things out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That is pretty crazy that they all "agreed" to do a coin flip to see if the card played or not, but then decided to void the hand. And void the hand and give some people money back, but leave some money in the pot? Bizarre, hard to believe that anyone went for that plan.

Yes, it was a shock to see the coin flip 'voided'.

As mentioned, it's small stakes, very social. I was one of the guys who left money (I think a buck) in the pot. If the other folder wanted his back, he never said anything. The rest of the players who took the last bet back, left he buck in as well.
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Old 06-05-2017, 08:16 PM   #6
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Re: Premature River - discussion of options

what the heck does the guy playing 96 hope to see? More than half the deck is an overcard or completes a draw.

I'm booking my flight now.
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