I am not sure where to post this, I tried the marketplace but can't post there. If a mod knows the appropriate section, please don't hesitate to move the thread.

To be brief, I agreed to a live cash staking deal with the owner of a game I play at. Everything was done orally unfortunately, and I am starting to realize this was a mistake.

I was pretty sure we agreed on a 25/75 investment and 50/50 profit share and today, his partner let me know it was actually 50/50 on all fronts.

Obviously, I am a bit annoyed about this turn around, and starting to reconsider whether this is really a good deal for me at all. I am not used to the stacking environment, especially less so when there is no coaching involved and the horse invests money.

What do you guys think? What is a normal structure for this type of deal?

I agree with Siberian, one on top of the other is usually the best way. Though, don’t make your stack too high, otherwise it will be unstable and topple over.

So you’re essentially selling them 50% of your action every game. This could be fine depending on the game. If they won’t let you play in the game otherwise and you don’t have better options then I’d consider it.

There's no such thing as a normal structure, since every circumstance is dependent on a bunch of factors, but on the surface your deal sounds pretty bad. Furthermore, if you both need money to play poker and think you need coaching, this can't end well or you. Heck, it hasn't even started well.

I can't imagine continuing a deal with someone that I think lied/changed the parameters basically immediately. I really hope you cut this off and either start anew with something in writing, or better still, just walking away.

Thanks for fixing the title ^^ English is not my first language, no more stacking

They let me play in the game otherwise. It mainly came up because it used to be a 2/4, which I am comfortable with. But turned into a 5/5 and switches to 5/10 or 10/20 which I am much less comfortable with when it comes to swings. It's not rare to have 40K+ on the tables

The game itself is really soft. I do not believe I need coaching to beat it. I only mentioned the coaching because it used to be included in most staking deals I knew about when I played online, and I thought it was somewhat relevant to mention there was none here.

I have not had the opportunity to talk with the owner yet, as only his partner was there yesterday. I am not convinced they are trying to **** me over, I know they have other players they are backing with different terms, so could be a misunderstanding.

In any case, if I am to continue with it, I will definitely want things to be in writing. I know this part is bad, but was mainly wondering about what others thought about the deal.

Assuming that selling 50% of my action is an OK deal, do you have any tips on something else I should watch out/set terms for before I go ahead and try to make a proper contract?

I was finally able to have a talk with the owner.

There was a misunderstanding about the deal (neither of us speak English as a first language, and I am inclined to believe it was an honest mistake).

The deal is apparently 50/50 and a 25% markup for me. Meaning that I actually share 50% of my profits and losses, but will have to recoup at least 25% of my backer's potential losses the next month over (if there are any) to get into profit myself.

The markup is forgiven for month A if I lose/do not make profit in month B and we start fresh again in month C (assuming I broke even, or 25% losses from month B are in mark up for month C).

Any thoughts on this structure?

Bad deal. There is never any makeup when going 50 50 with a gamerunner in a raked game.
The original deal is the best. Put up 25 %. Get 50% of win.
Next best. Put up 50%...get 75% of win
Third option: play on your own cash 100% and try to fade the rake if the game is beatable.

Your not that desperate to play are you. They dont sound that trustworthy for starters, I would give them a wide berth.

I've got one home game I'm invited to, where the rake is insane but the players are terrible. So I feel you situation. I've never needed to be staked, so maybe you feel different, but in my understanding, a backer is supposed to eat the losses in any deal, until you break even. that's part of their arrangement for getting a shre of the profits. If they're not doing that, I don't see how much benefit you are getting.

You aked about a "standard deal" Normally, again saying every situation is dofferent, but they are supposed to eat the losses until you are in profit, when you share. If that's not the deal, you may be getting the bad end of it.

I dion't know if this option is available to you, but there is a difference between being staked vs selling a piece of your action. Being staked is a multi-session committment, whereas selling a piece is a session by session basis. I'd rather sell half my action, meaning profits and losses are shared in proportion on a one-time basis, then enter an extended committment. If you lose a couple of sessions your losses should be within a space you can handle, and if you win after 1-2 sessions you won't need the deal any more.

good luck

good post about staking:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...&postcount=229

Thank you all for your replies. I'll definitely take all this in consideration before talking to them again. It's pretty much for a trial month for now anyway. And they are already in the black, so that should not be an issue if we can't agree, they will still want me to play.

This post is a bit long, sorry about that. I am coming home from a very long session and happy to get into details, even if they probably are not super relevant to the staking issue itself.

To be clear, I don't really need the staking at all. I could just go to other places and play 2/4 uncapped buy in like I used to and do well there. Nothing life changing, but good money. I still do actually (and they would like a piece of that too, which I am opposed to).

But to be fair, there is so much potential there. It is difficult for me not to be tempted. At my 2/4 game, a really good night is between 3K € and maybe 7-10 K € on exceptional days. Bad days are pretty much capped at - 2.5K € for me.

There, it’s more like 20K €+, and it’s almost a weekly occurrence that someone will lose 15K €+ during the night. The swings are insane, because the players are insane. Flops often go for 800€ because half the table limped/called or called a 10x iso on a 20 € straddle.

I tend to lock up when too much money is involved, whether it is when I lost too much to my taste, or when I won enough to be really really happy with it and unconsciously I am afraid to lose it.

I don’t take risks that I would usually take, or don’t make the right calls, just because, this kind of stuff. 5K €, for example, is still a huge amount in my eyes, I am not yet used to seeing it in a pot I am involved in. When you grind regularly, I find that the insignificance of a buy in is what liberates you to play your best. You’re still excited by the big pots, but in a different way. It’s good adrenaline, not stress.

TLDR; For me, the whole point is to minimize my risk, even if I have to sacrifice a bit of my profit for it to happen. And then be free/get a better deal or get into other games higher. The tables are so good, but so swingy too, and it could kill my poker roll. To give you an example, on Tuesday I faced a donk AI for 90ishbb on a A72o by a villain with 92s in a 70bb 3bet pot 4 ways.

Regarding the rake.

I guess a lot of people would find it indeed insanely high. It is 10% capped at 20. Usually it would be capped 15, but for this game in particular, since the players don’t care, that is the way it is. They also play in other games I am not invited to where the rake is capped at 50 € so they are ok with it.

For me, I think it is beatable easily, just for the fact that the game plays so deep. People borrow a lot, and it is very common for players to reload 1K after 1K for hours. Other than that, I get 25 € rakeback an hour, which is always nice. I don’t get it everywhere.

But this is also an incentive for the owners of the game to have me there.
Because they know the tables are insanely good and that I can do very long hours when this is the case. This means that they generate more rake, because I’ll actively try to prevent the table from breaking.

On the other hand, if I hit my stop loss or if I feel like I am no longer playing well because I am afraid to lose, I’ll stop.
It is also worth mentioning that the game often run a bit dry after 7-8 hours of play. If I am afraid to give people action, they won’t want to play against me 6 handed, the table will eventually break. They do not like to play with a low amount of people unless people participate. Nits get bashed and are not really re-invited unless they come with people.

They also know I will most likely win money in the game, assuming I am rolled for it. I refused before to play in games where I did not feel comfortable buying in for the amount needed. As much as someone call a table a 5/10, if people keep re-straddling each other or straddle random huge amounts every Mississippi, it quickly becomes a push and fold game even with 2K.

Regarding the shadiness of the owners. They run an underground poker room, so I guess the expectations are low. I personally had nothing but a great experience with them (up to now I guess). I know they make so much money that they mostly care about the business side of it. If I were to guess, I think this operation probably generates up to 40K a week in rake. They have a lot of expenses (rent of nice appartment, staff, everything free (including unlimited free packs of cigarettes, joints if you smoke, any drinks or food you want delivered, taxis, dealers, waiting staff etc...), but I am sure it does not make a dent in their revenues.

If anyone is wondering about the players in this game. Let’s just say they are mostly from the same community, have a lot of cash money and a lot of free time.

Small update. I was going to opt out of the deal, and offer them to buy shares in the bigger games only. We were supposed to talk about it this week end with the owner.

Everybody was arrested. Lucky me I was playing at another game that day. It seems that someone tipped the police off. I guess the staking won't be a subject of discussion anytime soon. Everybody is sitting in jail.

Unfortunately, this is very lucrative and I suspect a new competing game in this area may be responsible. I myself refused to play there when offered last week, because they had the same days as this game, and because I think the owner is a drug addict and I don't trust the dealers.

Case closed I guess. At least for the foreseeable future.