O8, player mucks half his hand on river facing a bet showing nut low...ruling?
09-21-2017
, 02:57 AM
Friendly heads up game Omaha 8. River brings a board that looks something like
A
4
79T
I hold A83x for nut flush and a crappy low
Was a limped pot pre, flop I bet, was raised and I called. Turn I made nut flush and led out and was called. River I bet.
Now after I bet my opponent, whose house we were playing at, shows me 2
3 face up and then puts his other 2 cards face down on top of the burn cards (which is usually what we consider the muck).
I ask him WTF is going on and start pushing my cards and reaching toward the pot (which was about 50$ + my $15 river bet...we play 5/10/15 fixed limit so 5 on flop, 10 on turn, 15 on river). Before I actually touch the pot or anything, I ask him: "What was your action? I mean you just mucked half your hand on top of the burn cards...What is going on?"
He is somewhat dumbfounded himself and silent and shocked at first that he did what he did. It was like 1:55am and we had been playing almost 7 hours with a couple hour break throughout the day and he was getting visibly tired. I explain to him that if he had put chips out as a call or said the word call I would have no problem chopping this pot with him but since he did neither and just showed 2 cards face up and put two cards face down in the muck it's difficult to really interpret his action.
We get in a discussion about "retrievable cards" rulings at casinos etc. and he admits that he thinks if he did that in a casino they would rule it as a fold to which I agree but say that theres a small % chance that with the right dealer, the right floor, and the right player that they would allow for retrievable cards to be taken out of the muck. In a home game, however it's not as clear and we don't have floor people to make the rules so whenever something weird like this happens I generally go to him for the "house ruling" since its his house.
After a few seconds of talking about it he quickly decided that he would just concede the pot since he basically mucked his hand without declaring any action verbally or putting any chips in the middle. I admit to him that this is a weird scenario and I've never seen anything like this before and feel obliged to do the right thing here without bias so I ask him that if the roles were reversed and if I was in the same scenario and made a silly move like that how would he rule it? He claims that he would have probably allowed me to retrieve the other 2 cards and make a decision whether to call/raise/fold. He goes on to say that if it were a full table and that if somebody else were to have interjected and said "but that's a fold" that he would have then ruled it as a fold to keep people happy and I ask him why that's any different than if its just heads up and he doesn't give a clear response (in my opinion).
He then goes on to explain a quite different scenario that has some small similarities which went something like this...We play regularly with some very recreational players and one in particular, who we'll refer to as PLAYER X, has been known to do weird stuff like on the river if it is checked to him and he has top pair in Texas Hold'em, PLAYER X has shown just one card (the top pair card) and put the other one face down towards the middle of the table at which point people may ask him "What are you doing?" at which point PLAYER X would respond "I check, I have top pair...is it good?" I explain that it's a very different scenario because that is a check/check river action as opposed to our hand where it was bet and .......(brain explode!!!!)....
At this point I tell him that the example he is using doesn't apply to this hand at all and I feel that what he did was essentially a textbook muck. I honestly don't think he was trying to angleshoot or anything and that he just meant to call but forgot to say it or put chips in before mucking his other 2 cards.
Eventually he says, "you know what...I made a mistake, and I need to take responsibility for it. Just keep the pot."
So basically we continued on playing for another few minutes and broke the game at 2:00am as he had originally planned to. He ended up crushing me for ~$450 this session which is pretty big win for this stakes and he decided to just let me keep the whole pot but I feel like part of that decision had to do with the fact that he won big this session and that if he was breaking even or winning a small amount or losing this session that he would have been more likely to speak up more about that hand and get a different ruling.
I do want to continue playing poker with this opponent in the future and maintain a friendly atmosphere but I also want the game to be played correctly at all times. I guess in retrospect I sort of feel like I should have allowed him to just call with 2 cards or something and get 1/2 the pot but something about the way it went down seemed really wacky.
I'm not sure how a casino would rule in this scenario and whether the "player must show all cards to claim a pot rule" (2 for hold'em and all 4 for omaha) is in effect at a particular casino would affect how a floor would rule this hand. I feel king of bad of how the situation played out and I definitely don't want to be perceived as somebody who cheats or any other negative connotations because that's just bad for business. Has anybody ever experienced something like this in a home game and what is the best way to handle it? I guess if it's a super rec player I would be more inclined to want to push for a ruling aimed at protecting the rec player to keep them coming back but the player who this hand happened to has a lot of poker experience and definitely knows better than to do what he did but was just careless.
How do you think I handled the situation and how would you have handled it if you were in this scenario? I will probably play more poker with him again tomorrow and want to know how I should proceed because if anybody here thinks that and can prove that his hand deserves half the pot then I will happily return him the $25ish dollars that he is owed. Please chime in and let me know what you think about this scenario. Thanks
A
479TI hold A
83x for nut flush and a crappy lowWas a limped pot pre, flop I bet, was raised and I called. Turn I made nut flush and led out and was called. River I bet.
Now after I bet my opponent, whose house we were playing at, shows me 2
3 face up and then puts his other 2 cards face down on top of the burn cards (which is usually what we consider the muck).I ask him WTF is going on and start pushing my cards and reaching toward the pot (which was about 50$ + my $15 river bet...we play 5/10/15 fixed limit so 5 on flop, 10 on turn, 15 on river). Before I actually touch the pot or anything, I ask him: "What was your action? I mean you just mucked half your hand on top of the burn cards...What is going on?"
He is somewhat dumbfounded himself and silent and shocked at first that he did what he did. It was like 1:55am and we had been playing almost 7 hours with a couple hour break throughout the day and he was getting visibly tired. I explain to him that if he had put chips out as a call or said the word call I would have no problem chopping this pot with him but since he did neither and just showed 2 cards face up and put two cards face down in the muck it's difficult to really interpret his action.
We get in a discussion about "retrievable cards" rulings at casinos etc. and he admits that he thinks if he did that in a casino they would rule it as a fold to which I agree but say that theres a small % chance that with the right dealer, the right floor, and the right player that they would allow for retrievable cards to be taken out of the muck. In a home game, however it's not as clear and we don't have floor people to make the rules so whenever something weird like this happens I generally go to him for the "house ruling" since its his house.
After a few seconds of talking about it he quickly decided that he would just concede the pot since he basically mucked his hand without declaring any action verbally or putting any chips in the middle. I admit to him that this is a weird scenario and I've never seen anything like this before and feel obliged to do the right thing here without bias so I ask him that if the roles were reversed and if I was in the same scenario and made a silly move like that how would he rule it? He claims that he would have probably allowed me to retrieve the other 2 cards and make a decision whether to call/raise/fold. He goes on to say that if it were a full table and that if somebody else were to have interjected and said "but that's a fold" that he would have then ruled it as a fold to keep people happy and I ask him why that's any different than if its just heads up and he doesn't give a clear response (in my opinion).
He then goes on to explain a quite different scenario that has some small similarities which went something like this...We play regularly with some very recreational players and one in particular, who we'll refer to as PLAYER X, has been known to do weird stuff like on the river if it is checked to him and he has top pair in Texas Hold'em, PLAYER X has shown just one card (the top pair card) and put the other one face down towards the middle of the table at which point people may ask him "What are you doing?" at which point PLAYER X would respond "I check, I have top pair...is it good?" I explain that it's a very different scenario because that is a check/check river action as opposed to our hand where it was bet and .......(brain explode!!!!)....
At this point I tell him that the example he is using doesn't apply to this hand at all and I feel that what he did was essentially a textbook muck. I honestly don't think he was trying to angleshoot or anything and that he just meant to call but forgot to say it or put chips in before mucking his other 2 cards.
Eventually he says, "you know what...I made a mistake, and I need to take responsibility for it. Just keep the pot."
So basically we continued on playing for another few minutes and broke the game at 2:00am as he had originally planned to. He ended up crushing me for ~$450 this session which is pretty big win for this stakes and he decided to just let me keep the whole pot but I feel like part of that decision had to do with the fact that he won big this session and that if he was breaking even or winning a small amount or losing this session that he would have been more likely to speak up more about that hand and get a different ruling.
I do want to continue playing poker with this opponent in the future and maintain a friendly atmosphere but I also want the game to be played correctly at all times. I guess in retrospect I sort of feel like I should have allowed him to just call with 2 cards or something and get 1/2 the pot but something about the way it went down seemed really wacky.
I'm not sure how a casino would rule in this scenario and whether the "player must show all cards to claim a pot rule" (2 for hold'em and all 4 for omaha) is in effect at a particular casino would affect how a floor would rule this hand. I feel king of bad of how the situation played out and I definitely don't want to be perceived as somebody who cheats or any other negative connotations because that's just bad for business. Has anybody ever experienced something like this in a home game and what is the best way to handle it? I guess if it's a super rec player I would be more inclined to want to push for a ruling aimed at protecting the rec player to keep them coming back but the player who this hand happened to has a lot of poker experience and definitely knows better than to do what he did but was just careless.
How do you think I handled the situation and how would you have handled it if you were in this scenario? I will probably play more poker with him again tomorrow and want to know how I should proceed because if anybody here thinks that and can prove that his hand deserves half the pot then I will happily return him the $25ish dollars that he is owed. Please chime in and let me know what you think about this scenario. Thanks
09-22-2017
, 12:01 PM
Quote:
Friendly heads up game Omaha 8. River brings a board that looks something like
A479T
I hold A83x for nut flush and a crappy low
Was a limped pot pre, flop I bet, was raised and I called. Turn I made nut flush and led out and was called. River I bet.
Now after I bet my opponent, whose house we were playing at, shows me 23 face up and then puts his other 2 cards face down on top of the burn cards (which is usually what we consider the muck).
I ask him WTF is going on and start pushing my cards and reaching toward the pot (which was about 50$ + my $15 river bet...we play 5/10/15 fixed limit so 5 on flop, 10 on turn, 15 on river). Before I actually touch the pot or anything, I ask him: "What was your action? I mean you just mucked half your hand on top of the burn cards...What is going on?"
He is somewhat dumbfounded himself and silent and shocked at first that he did what he did. It was like 1:55am and we had been playing almost 7 hours with a couple hour break throughout the day and he was getting visibly tired. I explain to him that if he had put chips out as a call or said the word call I would have no problem chopping this pot with him but since he did neither and just showed 2 cards face up and put two cards face down in the muck it's difficult to really interpret his action.
We get in a discussion about "retrievable cards" rulings at casinos etc. and he admits that he thinks if he did that in a casino they would rule it as a fold to which I agree but say that theres a small % chance that with the right dealer, the right floor, and the right player that they would allow for retrievable cards to be taken out of the muck. In a home game, however it's not as clear and we don't have floor people to make the rules so whenever something weird like this happens I generally go to him for the "house ruling" since its his house.
After a few seconds of talking about it he quickly decided that he would just concede the pot since he basically mucked his hand without declaring any action verbally or putting any chips in the middle. I admit to him that this is a weird scenario and I've never seen anything like this before and feel obliged to do the right thing here without bias so I ask him that if the roles were reversed and if I was in the same scenario and made a silly move like that how would he rule it? He claims that he would have probably allowed me to retrieve the other 2 cards and make a decision whether to call/raise/fold. He goes on to say that if it were a full table and that if somebody else were to have interjected and said "but that's a fold" that he would have then ruled it as a fold to keep people happy and I ask him why that's any different than if its just heads up and he doesn't give a clear response (in my opinion).
He then goes on to explain a quite different scenario that has some small similarities which went something like this...We play regularly with some very recreational players and one in particular, who we'll refer to as PLAYER X, has been known to do weird stuff like on the river if it is checked to him and he has top pair in Texas Hold'em, PLAYER X has shown just one card (the top pair card) and put the other one face down towards the middle of the table at which point people may ask him "What are you doing?" at which point PLAYER X would respond "I check, I have top pair...is it good?" I explain that it's a very different scenario because that is a check/check river action as opposed to our hand where it was bet and .......(brain explode!!!!)....
At this point I tell him that the example he is using doesn't apply to this hand at all and I feel that what he did was essentially a textbook muck. I honestly don't think he was trying to angleshoot or anything and that he just meant to call but forgot to say it or put chips in before mucking his other 2 cards.
Eventually he says, "you know what...I made a mistake, and I need to take responsibility for it. Just keep the pot."
So basically we continued on playing for another few minutes and broke the game at 2:00am as he had originally planned to. He ended up crushing me for ~$450 this session which is pretty big win for this stakes and he decided to just let me keep the whole pot but I feel like part of that decision had to do with the fact that he won big this session and that if he was breaking even or winning a small amount or losing this session that he would have been more likely to speak up more about that hand and get a different ruling.
I do want to continue playing poker with this opponent in the future and maintain a friendly atmosphere but I also want the game to be played correctly at all times. I guess in retrospect I sort of feel like I should have allowed him to just call with 2 cards or something and get 1/2 the pot but something about the way it went down seemed really wacky.
I'm not sure how a casino would rule in this scenario and whether the "player must show all cards to claim a pot rule" (2 for hold'em and all 4 for omaha) is in effect at a particular casino would affect how a floor would rule this hand. I feel king of bad of how the situation played out and I definitely don't want to be perceived as somebody who cheats or any other negative connotations because that's just bad for business. Has anybody ever experienced something like this in a home game and what is the best way to handle it? I guess if it's a super rec player I would be more inclined to want to push for a ruling aimed at protecting the rec player to keep them coming back but the player who this hand happened to has a lot of poker experience and definitely knows better than to do what he did but was just careless.
How do you think I handled the situation and how would you have handled it if you were in this scenario? I will probably play more poker with him again tomorrow and want to know how I should proceed because if anybody here thinks that and can prove that his hand deserves half the pot then I will happily return him the $25ish dollars that he is owed. Please chime in and let me know what you think about this scenario. Thanks
A
479TI hold A
83x for nut flush and a crappy lowWas a limped pot pre, flop I bet, was raised and I called. Turn I made nut flush and led out and was called. River I bet.
Now after I bet my opponent, whose house we were playing at, shows me 2
3 face up and then puts his other 2 cards face down on top of the burn cards (which is usually what we consider the muck).I ask him WTF is going on and start pushing my cards and reaching toward the pot (which was about 50$ + my $15 river bet...we play 5/10/15 fixed limit so 5 on flop, 10 on turn, 15 on river). Before I actually touch the pot or anything, I ask him: "What was your action? I mean you just mucked half your hand on top of the burn cards...What is going on?"
He is somewhat dumbfounded himself and silent and shocked at first that he did what he did. It was like 1:55am and we had been playing almost 7 hours with a couple hour break throughout the day and he was getting visibly tired. I explain to him that if he had put chips out as a call or said the word call I would have no problem chopping this pot with him but since he did neither and just showed 2 cards face up and put two cards face down in the muck it's difficult to really interpret his action.
We get in a discussion about "retrievable cards" rulings at casinos etc. and he admits that he thinks if he did that in a casino they would rule it as a fold to which I agree but say that theres a small % chance that with the right dealer, the right floor, and the right player that they would allow for retrievable cards to be taken out of the muck. In a home game, however it's not as clear and we don't have floor people to make the rules so whenever something weird like this happens I generally go to him for the "house ruling" since its his house.
After a few seconds of talking about it he quickly decided that he would just concede the pot since he basically mucked his hand without declaring any action verbally or putting any chips in the middle. I admit to him that this is a weird scenario and I've never seen anything like this before and feel obliged to do the right thing here without bias so I ask him that if the roles were reversed and if I was in the same scenario and made a silly move like that how would he rule it? He claims that he would have probably allowed me to retrieve the other 2 cards and make a decision whether to call/raise/fold. He goes on to say that if it were a full table and that if somebody else were to have interjected and said "but that's a fold" that he would have then ruled it as a fold to keep people happy and I ask him why that's any different than if its just heads up and he doesn't give a clear response (in my opinion).
He then goes on to explain a quite different scenario that has some small similarities which went something like this...We play regularly with some very recreational players and one in particular, who we'll refer to as PLAYER X, has been known to do weird stuff like on the river if it is checked to him and he has top pair in Texas Hold'em, PLAYER X has shown just one card (the top pair card) and put the other one face down towards the middle of the table at which point people may ask him "What are you doing?" at which point PLAYER X would respond "I check, I have top pair...is it good?" I explain that it's a very different scenario because that is a check/check river action as opposed to our hand where it was bet and .......(brain explode!!!!)....
At this point I tell him that the example he is using doesn't apply to this hand at all and I feel that what he did was essentially a textbook muck. I honestly don't think he was trying to angleshoot or anything and that he just meant to call but forgot to say it or put chips in before mucking his other 2 cards.
Eventually he says, "you know what...I made a mistake, and I need to take responsibility for it. Just keep the pot."
So basically we continued on playing for another few minutes and broke the game at 2:00am as he had originally planned to. He ended up crushing me for ~$450 this session which is pretty big win for this stakes and he decided to just let me keep the whole pot but I feel like part of that decision had to do with the fact that he won big this session and that if he was breaking even or winning a small amount or losing this session that he would have been more likely to speak up more about that hand and get a different ruling.
I do want to continue playing poker with this opponent in the future and maintain a friendly atmosphere but I also want the game to be played correctly at all times. I guess in retrospect I sort of feel like I should have allowed him to just call with 2 cards or something and get 1/2 the pot but something about the way it went down seemed really wacky.
I'm not sure how a casino would rule in this scenario and whether the "player must show all cards to claim a pot rule" (2 for hold'em and all 4 for omaha) is in effect at a particular casino would affect how a floor would rule this hand. I feel king of bad of how the situation played out and I definitely don't want to be perceived as somebody who cheats or any other negative connotations because that's just bad for business. Has anybody ever experienced something like this in a home game and what is the best way to handle it? I guess if it's a super rec player I would be more inclined to want to push for a ruling aimed at protecting the rec player to keep them coming back but the player who this hand happened to has a lot of poker experience and definitely knows better than to do what he did but was just careless.
How do you think I handled the situation and how would you have handled it if you were in this scenario? I will probably play more poker with him again tomorrow and want to know how I should proceed because if anybody here thinks that and can prove that his hand deserves half the pot then I will happily return him the $25ish dollars that he is owed. Please chime in and let me know what you think about this scenario. Thanks
I'd like to think that I would have:
A. Stopped the action, which you did.
B. Not acted until there was clarification, which you did not.
Reaching for the pot and pushing your cards is not the same as waiting for clarification.
I'm not looking to point out the nut low, and that V isn't going to lose money by calling.
I am not putting words into V's mouth either.
In a home game, I think some of the non-casino-standard actions can cause issues. Such as showing an incomplete hand, or showing a hand prior to action. Yes, I know some casinos have rules that allow that stuff, but the majority don't. Best to start teaching home game players to protect their hands, protect their action, showdown a complete hand properly (not tossing cards, or moving to the center of the table/board).
I'm not sure that anyone can "prove" that his hand deserves half the pot. I do think that he made a mistake. It was correctable, but was not corrected. If I acted poorly, and took an extra half pot on a technicality, but didn't realize it until next time, I'd offer it back, or spend it on something to bring to the game (food/drink).
The host/floor/player is going to have to negative freeroll themselves from time to time. I do think it's fair to hold myself to the same standards (not greater) as the other players, but I know I'm harsher on myself to avoid the appearance that I'm not 100% above board.
Keeping the customers happy. Did you play HU for the whole session? Was he your customer?
In most casinos, mucking part of your hand is mucking your hand.
In some casinos, showing part of your hand has consequences. They vary based on number of players and remaining action.
10-01-2017
, 03:34 PM
