Hey everyone. A situation came up last night I wanted your opinion on. I play in a weekly home game. It is a cash game of Holdem/PLO/PLO8. It is a very fun and friendly environment. We play different props throughout the game such as Lodden thinks and the 7-2 bonus. One player at the table and I have an agreement that if we are ever heads up in a pot that we put in 5x blinds and run the board out. This has been going on for probably 2 years now with no issue. It is never done in a multiway pot and we dont collude to force players out of the hand to get heads up. Last night during PLO8. UTG Player raised to $7. 4 calls including myself holding KK24. The flop came K J J. First to act was the small blind and he leads out for $20. It folds around to me, I call, and the button behind me folds. It is now heads up. I throw in $10 more as does the player I have an agreement with. He sees my hand and confirms he's drawing dead and mucks. I begin to drag in the pot in and the player who raised UTG flipped out. He began yelling that its bull**** we do that and it shouldn't be allowed. He begins telling me in bigger hands it shouldn't occur, only if its a tiny pot or blind vs blind. I said its only done when we are heads up and does not ever effect anyone else at the table. The player who was arguing against this has been in the game for years and has seen us do this a bunch of times with no issue before. I told the player who I have the agreement with that we aren't going to do it anymore as I don't want to ruin the game in any way. Are we out of line for making this agreement? I was always under the once it gets heads up, sort of "anything goes" mentality. Thanks for reading.

your leaving out a lot of details.

My apologies. What details should I include to help generate an opinion on the situation?

how much did you lose?

Everything about this is dumb. Why not just play scratcher tickets?

This is not acceptable. It has all the elements of team play. Your agreement is explicitly unfair collusion. It looks bad and is bad for the game.

There doesn't need to be an explicit plan to knock out third parties. The simple fact you both know you have agreed to check it down for five blinds when you get heads-up is adequate to get an advantage over the field.

I am curious if one of you is the host. And if not one of you, who is the host? I find it hard to believe no one has raised an objection prior to this. If I were host, you both would be on probation or final warning.

Is this a for profit game or a true home game? I ask because the host in a for profit game might calculate the team play is good for his/her profits because it reduces variation.

Bluntly, you two are openly cheating, knock it off.

DrStrange

I agree with DrStrange here. I don't think you're doing it with any intent but fun, but it is collusion.

I mean, would your friend even have called the flop if he thought he'd probably be facing a big bet OTT? Although you're not trying to knock other people out, you are very much changing the game with your agreement.

I'd just tell folks "sorry, just trying to keep the game fun and lighthearted, but I understand if folks don't like it, and we won't do that anymore."

If you have an agreement to check down with specific players heads up it warps your play even if you don’t intend to collude / don’t have a profit sharing scheme.

In spots like this you’re far more likely to call with KK than raise because you know you’re capped in terms of how much you can win off the guy when it’s heads up. the guy behind can now be dragged along with hands that have zero equity in spots where if you didn’t have this agreement he’d have folded to your raise. Alternatively you may call or raise in spots that don’t normally makes sense because you know if heads up you’ll be able to realize your equity and/or that he can’t bluff.

The net effect isn’t big because these things hurt you and the player you have the agreement almost as often as they help you but it adds complication to other players decisions that they shouldn’t have to deal with, and gives the impression of more unethical things happening that can’t be proven either way. So why do it?

It's complicated.

The guy that knows you do that, and only complains when he gets hurt is a little b!tch. If he has voiced objections before, than I'm curious to the prior response.

In a 'serious' game, having an agreement like that is not allowed, even though many casino regulars seem to check it down at the lowest stakes. Hard for the dealer/floor to combat that, except when they are explicit.

In a 'friendly' game, you are allowed to do what the host allows you to do. It appears that you are interested in doing what you can to keep the game going. If that's the case, then stop making deals and play more poker.