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Old 01-11-2012, 05:36 AM   #1
NorthMetroPoker
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Question For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

We are all familiar with both scenarios. For me, I have always used the dead button in friend cash games/small tourneys with family at family gatherings but now with a very well organized league that I am starting in less than three weeks, I've done more studying into the Moving Button procedure.

While the Moving Button is more complicated to me, it seems that the general consensus to everyone I've talked to would rather do it the "right way" thus choosing the Moving Button procedure.

The animation at chiptalk (HERE) really helps me understand the Moving Button procedure better so I think with enough study, I can get it down in time.

What do you guys recommend?
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:29 AM   #2
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Moving button is only for cash games. If you are going to be hosting both cash and tourney that are player dealt, you should stick with dead button to avoid confusion.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:51 AM   #3
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Dead button is easier to understand and less prone to mistakes IMO. I'd stick with it.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:59 AM   #4
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Not saying you can't change the rules for your home game but if you use the TDA rules, they actually have a specific rule for that.

Quote:
28: Dead Button

Tournament play will use a dead button.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:22 AM   #5
The Big K
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

The dead button should not be difficult unless you make it that way. In a dead button, it is the BB is need to worry about. You must always have a BB and it always moves to next active player at the table. SB and button are then determined by seats of the previous hand.

Tournaments should always use a dead button. That way there are no complaints, "well he didn't play the blinds this round because Bill and Joe were eliminated the previous round and here I am the short stack in the BB again."
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:25 PM   #6
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

chiptalk sucks. there, I said it. It takes forever for each step of that animation to load for me.

homepokertourney.com also has an explanation

I've only ever seen the dead button in tournaments. In our home cash games, we simply move the button and if someone skips a blind, we don't worry about it.

I might be mistaken, but I think some local cardrooms use the "move the button and shaddup" rule as well (button moves one seat to the left, then there's a small blind and a big blind, no matter who was what the previous hand). In cash games. Again, tournament = dead button.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:36 PM   #7
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Dead button AINEC.

With a moving button, you have situations where three or four players are paying blinds in the same hand. An occasional dead small blind is more fair and much less disruptive IMO.
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Old 01-11-2012, 01:39 PM   #8
The Palimax
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big K View Post
In a dead button, it is the BB is need to worry about. You must always have a BB and it always moves to next active player at the table. SB and button are then determined by seats of the previous hand.
It's vastly easier to think about this way.

Move the BB.
Give blinds to everyone else that needs them.


It's vastly easier than some sort of two bigs and a small sort of craziness that happens at some cash tables. [...although still not "hard" to figure out].
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #9
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

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Originally Posted by gedanken View Post
chiptalk sucks. there, I said it.
That website as far as "look & feel" is probably ranked in the "top 10 worst" for me.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:54 PM   #10
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Agree. I loathe the layout.

Also, sometimes looking for information there is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles...
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:21 PM   #11
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Uh, every where I've played (home games, casinos, and raked underground games) has used the Dead Button procedure for both cash games and tournaments.

Almost every online site used the Dead Button procedure, too. If I recall correctly, PartyPoker was the only site I every played that used the Forward Moving Button.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthMetroPoker View Post
I've talked to would rather do it the "right way" thus choosing the Moving Button procedure.

What do you guys recommend?

Who is talking you into the "right way" and switching to the Forward Moving Button? I would advise against it. Everyone gets the BB and SB. Nobody should be skipped.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:37 PM   #12
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

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Originally Posted by Precept2 View Post
Who is talking you into the "right way" and switching to the Forward Moving Button? I would advise against it. Everyone gets the BB and SB. Nobody should be skipped.
Maybe I'm not 100% clear how this works either, so let's get this (my understanding) out there:

Under the Moving Button rule, nobody skips the blinds. The button moves to the next ACTIVE player, and additional blinds are posted as needed so that every player still pays a large and small blind for that orbit. (there may be MORE dead money in one or more pots). This procedure will be seen in some cash games.

The Dead Button rule is somewhat simpler. If someone exits that would have been the button or small blind, there is no button or small blind that hand. Every player will still get 1 sb and 1 bb for that orbit. (there may be LESS dead money in one or more pots). This rule is very common in tournaments.

The procedure at most of the home games I play in, plus (maybe) a local cardroom, is to treat each hand in a vacuum. The button moves one seat to the left of where it was, and the blinds follow. Players might skip blinds. Every pot starts with the same dead money. This is never recommended for tournaments.

I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
It's vastly easier to think about this way.

Move the BB.
Give blinds to everyone else that needs them.


It's vastly easier than some sort of two bigs and a small sort of craziness that happens at some cash tables. [...although still not "hard" to figure out].
+1 This is a great way to look at it. I am definitely going to use this. I love having very simple explanations for things that can be over-complicated.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:07 PM   #14
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedanken View Post
Maybe I'm not 100% clear how this works either, so let's get this (my understanding) out there:

Under the Moving Button rule, nobody skips the blinds. The button moves to the next ACTIVE player, and additional blinds are posted as needed so that every player still pays a large and small blind for that orbit. (there may be MORE dead money in one or more pots). This procedure will be seen in some cash games.

The Dead Button rule is somewhat simpler. If someone exits that would have been the button or small blind, there is no button or small blind that hand. Every player will still get 1 sb and 1 bb for that orbit. (there may be LESS dead money in one or more pots). This rule is very common in tournaments.

The procedure at most of the home games I play in, plus (maybe) a local cardroom, is to treat each hand in a vacuum. The button moves one seat to the left of where it was, and the blinds follow. Players might skip blinds. Every pot starts with the same dead money. This is never recommended for tournaments.

I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
Correctamundo!
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:00 PM   #15
Precept24
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedanken View Post
Maybe I'm not 100% clear how this works either, so let's get this (my understanding) out there:
Apparently, I'm not 100% either.

Under the Moving Button rule, nobody skips the blinds. The button moves to the next ACTIVE player, and additional blinds are posted as needed so that every player still pays a large and small blind for that orbit. (there may be MORE dead money in one or more pots). This procedure will be seen in some cash games.


I reserve the right to be completely wrong.
I always reserve that right.
I thought the Forward Moving Button was where if the SB (the next dealer) busts out, the deal skips the empty seat to the next player (the would be SB). Then, the next player is the SB (the would be BB) and the player after that is the BB.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:09 PM   #16
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

OP, I vote for dead button. I'm more concerned about each person paying 1 BB and 1 SB when in the tourney/cash game, than I'm worried about a person occasionally having the best position two times in a row.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:30 PM   #17
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedanken View Post
Under the Moving Button rule, nobody skips the blinds. The button moves to the next ACTIVE player, and additional blinds are posted as needed so that every player still pays a large and small blind for that orbit. (there may be MORE dead money in one or more pots). This procedure will be seen in some cash games.

The Dead Button rule is somewhat simpler. If someone exits that would have been the button or small blind, there is no button or small blind that hand. Every player will still get 1 sb and 1 bb for that orbit. (there may be LESS dead money in one or more pots). This rule is very common in tournaments.
Very close.

In the general case, both schemes have everyone paying the same number of SBs and BBs per orbit, though under Dead Button rules a player can be acting as the button more than once in an orbit.

(More on the differences from me a few posts down.)

Last edited by The Meal; 01-11-2012 at 08:49 PM. Reason: bad information!
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:37 PM   #18
The Palimax
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

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Originally Posted by The Meal View Post
Under the Dead Button scheme if the SB & BB bust out on the same hand, one player can be skipped over for paying the SB for that orbit.
There are certainly hands where nobody is the SB, but why would any still-playing player possibly miss their SB?
  • Move the BB forward.
  • If you were the BB last hand, you are the SB this hand.
  • Begin dealing to the first person with a blind and put the button behind them.
Nobody can miss a BB without busting out.
Nobody can miss a SB without busting out.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:42 PM   #19
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

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Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
OP, I vote for dead button. I'm more concerned about each person paying 1 BB and 1 SB when in the tourney/cash game, than I'm worried about a person occasionally having the best position two times in a row.
Forgot to add:

"And I don't like to give the button one of the blinds"

I'll have to look up the forward button rule again, to see if I'm still in the dead button camp.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:49 PM   #20
The Meal
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Whoops! Palimax has this completely correct (of course!). The most egregious simplification that the Dead Button rule does is to lead to an inequitable number of buttons for one player during an orbit where there was a bust-out. Also, it's possible that the occassional pot starts out with one SB's worth of dead money not present.

Compare that to the Forward Moving Button, which ensures the proper number of buttons per player per orbit, but at the expense of starting pots containing:
* 1x BB & 1x SB,
* 2x BB & 1x SB (paid by button),
* 1x BB & 2x SB (one paid by button),
* 2x BB & 0x SB,
* 3x BB (one paid by button) & 0x SB, and
* 1x BB & 3x SB (one paid by the button and one paid by the cut-off!).

Apologies for my post with the bad info, above. I'll fix it.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:02 AM   #21
NorthMetroPoker
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Precept2 View Post
Who is talking you into the "right way" and switching to the Forward Moving Button? I would advise against it. Everyone gets the BB and SB. Nobody should be skipped.
My core group of players that I always play with in a different tourney league. They are "against" someone being able to act last in a hand twice in a row, hence they are pushing for me to go with the Moving Button.

I have always done Dead Button in the past, and it's what I know...

Maybe I should just man up and tell them all too bad.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:12 PM   #22
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmendr1ck View Post
Dead button AINEC.

With a moving button, you have situations where three or four players are paying blinds in the same hand. An occasional dead small blind is more fair and much less disruptive IMO.
+1 for Dead button. WTH do it any other way?
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:13 PM   #23
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

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Originally Posted by NorthMetroPoker View Post
I should just man up and tell them all too bad.
This and it's not close.
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:34 PM   #24
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthMetroPoker View Post
My core group of players that I always play with in a different tourney league. They are "against" someone being able to act last in a hand twice in a row, hence they are pushing for me to go with the Moving Button.

I have always done Dead Button in the past, and it's what I know...

Maybe I should just man up and tell them all too bad.
They are opposed to someone being last to act twice but not someone missing having to post a blind?
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:05 PM   #25
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Re: For my Home Tourney: Dead Button or Moving Button?

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Originally Posted by Pocket_Keith View Post
They are opposed to someone being last to act twice but not someone missing having to post a blind?
There's a fairly good argument in NL for the power of the button being worth more than the cost of the blinds.

How about for $3/hand you act last every street forever?
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