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Old 02-27-2009, 08:20 AM   #1
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Mississippi Rock?

I'm thinking of introducing a new twist to my cash game. It was hinted at in another thread, but I don't think anybody ever tried it or reported.

So far the name I have is Mississippi Rock (or Hard Rock Rock), but I'm open to suggestion.

Here's how it works.

Chips totaling double the BB are wrapped in a rubber band, seeded in the first pot by the house (or maybe there's a qualifier?). When you win it, you can use it only as a BUTTON STRADDLE. You are not obligated. Action up to one raise will complete around the table before you act. If you kill it (win it twice in a row), you have to wait an extra orbit before using it again.

Whaddaya think?
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:22 AM   #2
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
If you kill it (win it twice in a row), you have to wait an extra orbit before using it again.
Why? (I don't think I like this part, buy maybe your reasoning will justify it.)

The rest of it looks solid. I'll try to put it in this sunday.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:46 AM   #3
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

We've definitely been using the Mississippi Rock for the last month and a half. I made a report in one of the two concurrent threads that started in December.

<<< BTW, my avatar is the Rock


Some properties of Rock hands:

1. The Rock must be straddled when the button arrives (this is to prevent someone from hoarding the Rock and keeping it out of play indefinitely)

2. Action starts UTG. This creates more action than a traditional Mississippi straddle, which starts at SB.

3. In a limped pot, action ends on the Rock, which has the option

4. The Rock still acts last if there is one raise preflop from another player

5. The Rock must answer a preflop re-raise in normal order.

6. A player can keep and use the Rock as many consecutive times as his defense of it will allow

7. If the Rock was mistakenly kept out of action, it is posted as a dead straddle on the next hand (I'm thinking of changing this rule, since players have an incentive to not remind the button to post it... which I've done several times). If this next hand is where the Rock is UTG, it can be played as a normal UTG straddle.

8. The Rock can also be used as regular chips in any hand, and is counted in all-ins. The Rock cannot be unbounded and used as separate chips.

9. If the Rock defender chops the pot, he keeps the Rock. Otherwise, the Rock goes to the player to the left of the dealer button. (This last rule puts the Rock in play sooner, so you may want to modify it if this is a concern.)



We get the Rock into the game when we draw for the dealer button. The first dealer forms the Rock from his own chips and immediately straddles it.

I don't see any reason to not have the players fund the Rock by random draw. It's better than getting hit with the BB first, imo. Although if you have a bunch of players who are suspicious of the idea, it makes sense to fund it for the first time.


I don't really like your idea of putting restrictions on how many consecutive Rock-pots you can win, and I don't see the reason for that rule. Can you elaborate on your intention? (Also clarify whether the maximum was winning the Rock twice, or defending it twice.)

But even if the same guy has the Rock and holds onto it the whole game, it's only coming into play once per orbit. Forcing the Rock out for an orbit means that there will be two orbits without it coming into play. That's a long time for a full-ring game, I think.

BTW, the same guy holding onto the Rock for a long time is part of what makes for action. People start keeping track of how long the same guy has had it.

If you are concerned about the Rock being used too much (as in more than once per orbit), you should be more concerned about the blinds stealing it (since it comes into play within the next two hands).

If this is a concern, you could make a rule that says if the BB or SB steals the Rock, they have to let the button pass them once before they can straddle it.


Overall, the Mississippi Rock creates a lot of action from both the knowledgeable players and the bad Lags. Part of it is the pride of having it, defending it or stealing it. The other part is the pure strategic advantage.

It doesn't create excessive action, however, since it is only in play a little more than once per orbit.

I also recommend that the game should have average stacks of over 80bbs before it is introduced.


Finally, we have a rule that the person who ends the night with the Rock gets the Rock the following week if he shows up on time. I like this rule since it gives the Rock significance even when it is late and players know the game will end soon. (Hopefully it also encourages a prompt arrival from at least one person.)


Overall, I highly recommend the Mississippi Rock, especially for full-ring games.

Let us know how it goes across with your group if you use it!



Original threads:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/24...erates-374663/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/24...g-back-374515/

Last edited by dismalstudent99; 02-27-2009 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:17 PM   #4
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by dismalstudent99 View Post

2. Action starts UTG. This creates more action than a traditional Mississippi straddle, which starts at SB.

3. In a limped pot, action ends on the Rock, which has the option

4. The Rock still acts last if there is one raise preflop from another player

5. The Rock must answer a preflop re-raise in normal order.

Please clarify this for me; are you saying that the action SKIPS the Rock if the pot is limped or there is only one raise preflop??

So if we have a seven handed table of (in clockwise order); sb, bb, utg, utg+1, hijack, cutoff, button (rock). the action could proceed: utg limp, utg+1 fold, hijack raise, cuttoff fold, SKIP the button, sb call, bb fold, utg call, THEN button ??

Seems much more straight forward to just play the Rock in normal order... and start the action with the sb like a normal Mississippi straddle, so that the first round of action ends with the Rock....

Dan
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:47 PM   #5
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by dismalstudent99 View Post
We've definitely been using the Mississippi Rock for the last month and a half. I made a report in one of the two concurrent threads that started in December.
Whoops, sorry I missed them! Thanks for stepping up, I was wondering what your new avatar was all about.

I like all of your rules, except for #7.

Quote:
I don't really like your idea of putting restrictions on how many consecutive Rock-pots you can win,
I was thinking it might create too much action, and perhaps animosity towards someone who keeps winning it. Our tables are usually 7 or 8 handed each. But if you say that hasn't been a problem, I'll drop it. You've been field testing!

My minimum suggested buyin is 80BB, and most start with 120.

Thanks for your report on it!

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Originally Posted by Chee7718 View Post
Please clarify this for me; are you saying that the action SKIPS the Rock if the pot is limped or there is only one raise preflop??
Yes, exactly what you described.

Quote:
Seems much more straight forward to just play the Rock in normal order... and start the action with the sb like a normal Mississippi straddle, so that the first round of action ends with the Rock....
I'm not a fan of that. I don't think it would create as much action, or be as good an advantage to have. This thing's gotta be worth something good for people to fight over it.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:55 PM   #6
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by Chee7718 View Post
Seems much more straight forward to just play the Rock in normal order... and start the action with the sb like a normal Mississippi straddle, so that the first round of action ends with the Rock....
Starting the action with the SB tightens up the blinds too much. If you happen to play at a game where most players understand basic poker concepts then the game might even tighten up with a Mississippi straddle.

Giving the blinds late preflop action is a huge enticement to enter.

As for the Rock skipping the first raise: If limped action skips from the CO to the SB, it makes sense to maintain that order even if there is a raise. So the two rules are consistent with each other, which makes it easy to remember.

And, of course, it gives an extra advantage to the Rock to make it worth fighting over.

It takes the players a few Rock hands to get a feel for it, but you'll here the "Ah-ha's" as they get the significance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
Whoops, sorry I missed them! Thanks for stepping up, I was wondering what your new avatar was all about.

I like all of your rules, except for #7. (Posting Rock as dead if forgotten on the button)
Yeah, I have my doubts about that rule too. But the thing is, people will often forget to straddle it, so there needs to be a rule in place to figure out what to do afterwards.

Ideally, there would be a rule that encourages/rewards people for reminding the button to straddle it. Ideas?
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:18 PM   #7
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

No ideas yet, but I figure I won't force it to be played. Maybe someone doesn't like the rock, now s/he has to fight to remove it. I'll give it a game or two, see how it goes.
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Old 02-27-2009, 08:09 PM   #8
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

The game is SUPPOSED to tighten up with a Mississippi straddle. Everyone who's not the button has to be really afraid of the button unless they have a premium hand.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:16 PM   #9
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by findingneema View Post
The game is SUPPOSED to tighten up with a Mississippi straddle.

No, I don't think this is the case. Why on Earth would a casino allow a device designed to tighten up the game?

In the typical gambly environment that the Ms. straddle was born in (Mississippi), it was known to create action, thus, this was probably its original purpose.

Now, the actual effect of the Ms. straddle depends on the types of players in the game.

In NLHE games with good TAGish players, it is known to often kill the action.



Quote:
Originally Posted by findingneema View Post
Everyone who's not the button has to be really afraid of the button unless they have a premium hand.
This isn't as true as you suggest, especially in NLHE (as opposed to PLO). The button has straddled blind and can be pushed out pre or post, especially in a multi-way pot. He probably can't defend with ATC unless HU, deep and against a weak-tight opponent.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chee7718 View Post
Seems much more straight forward to just play the Rock in normal order... and start the action with the sb like a normal Mississippi straddle, so that the first round of action ends with the Rock....
btw, I think the Ms. Rock is still a good idea even if the Rock plays as a standard Mississippi straddle (no skipping over, SB acts first).

The historical origin of the "skip-one-raise" rule was that at the Hard Rock casino the Rock was activated UTG, as a traditional straddle. This, of course, made the Rock much easier to steal, which reduced it's value. So they thought to give it a little extra protection.

Once it is determined that the Rock shall be activated on the button as a standard Ms. straddle, this "skip-one-raise rule" probably isn't necessary to make some people covet the Rock.

However, if your players are good and/or tight, I think a little more is needed to create genuine battles for the Rock. Furthermore, the blinds should be given a bigger enticement to enter, and giving them late action preflop is a big one.
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Old 02-28-2009, 04:40 AM   #10
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

I just want to go on record as saying I like this. One thing I saw in one of these posts was it doesn't give the button much of an advantage... I disagree. A lot.

Do you play KQ, QJ, J10 under the gun? Some do, but why is it so much easier to raise these hands on the button? And if I am last to act and I see a lot of dead money out there, say 3-4 limps, then I can raise and pick it up... I'll do that with no straddle on the button!

If I get called, meh, I still have position.
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:49 AM   #11
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
I'm not a fan of that. I don't think it would create as much action, or be as good an advantage to have. This thing's gotta be worth something good for people to fight over it.
If you're worried about action, why does the rock get to decide not to post it, if they choose? Or did I misread that?

Also, I didn't understand this part of your rules

"Action up to one raise will complete around the table before you act."

So, if a second raise occurs in front, you suddenly act in turn with the button rock? I'm not sure of the point of this- guess smart players in the blinds, or maybe the cutoff, could manipulate the process somehow?

Last edited by Lottery Larry; 03-01-2009 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:38 AM   #12
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Giving the blinds late preflop action is a huge enticement to enter.
Don't the blinds always get late preflop action? What did I miss here?
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:25 PM   #13
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by dismalstudent99 View Post
No, I don't think this is the case. Why on Earth would a casino allow a device designed to tighten up the game?

In the typical gambly environment that the Ms. straddle was born in (Mississippi), it was known to create action, thus, this was probably its original purpose.

Now, the actual effect of the Ms. straddle depends on the types of players in the game.

In NLHE games with good TAGish players, it is known to often kill the action.





This isn't as true as you suggest, especially in NLHE (as opposed to PLO). The button has straddled blind and can be pushed out pre or post, especially in a multi-way pot. He probably can't defend with ATC unless HU, deep and against a weak-tight opponent.





btw, I think the Ms. Rock is still a good idea even if the Rock plays as a standard Mississippi straddle (no skipping over, SB acts first).

The historical origin of the "skip-one-raise" rule was that at the Hard Rock casino the Rock was activated UTG, as a traditional straddle. This, of course, made the Rock much easier to steal, which reduced it's value. So they thought to give it a little extra protection.

Once it is determined that the Rock shall be activated on the button as a standard Ms. straddle, this "skip-one-raise rule" probably isn't necessary to make some people covet the Rock.

However, if your players are good and/or tight, I think a little more is needed to create genuine battles for the Rock. Furthermore, the blinds should be given a bigger enticement to enter, and giving them late action preflop is a big one.
All of my post was indeed referring to what SHOULD happen. If you have bad players, well, that's different. But if you take a 5/10 game with $3k-$4k stacks and add a Mississippi straddle, the right thing to do is tighten up off the button. And that's how bigger games (where the Miss straddle is often used) are played.

Clearly in PLO it gives the button more leeway, but as you say, when the stacks are deep, even in NLHE the button has a massive advantage.
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Old 03-01-2009, 03:31 PM   #14
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

We use one, but not a Mississippi rock. Ours acts the same but forces a straddle UTG to a size larger than a normal straddle (though we usually decide on the night what that size will be).

This definitely loosens up the game, for obvious reasons, and leads to some interesting situations and general mayhem in 'Rock Pots'. I like it this way.

Hmm, just seen someone above describing the rock's historical origins as being the way we use it. I don't think it's made it easier to steal, but I play in a very loose game with a lot of gamblers in it so defence of the rock is rampant.

Perhaps I'll suggest using it is a Mississippi rock in the next few games and see how that goes.
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Old 03-01-2009, 04:18 PM   #15
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

so is the rock ever cashed out?
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Old 03-01-2009, 04:43 PM   #16
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
If you're worried about action, why does the rock get to decide not to post it, if they choose?
Based on how people are reacting here, I may not have that be part of it.

Quote:
So, if a second raise occurs in front, you suddenly act in turn with the button rock?
I believe that's how it works at the Hard Rock.

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so is the rock ever cashed out?
Sure, at the end of the night. Tho' if it's house-funded, maybe not.
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Old 03-01-2009, 05:58 PM   #17
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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so is the rock ever cashed out?
In the casinos, no- from what I understand, the rock has to be posted by the departing player if she or he still has it.
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:49 PM   #18
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
So, if a second raise occurs in front, you suddenly act in turn with the button rock? I'm not sure of the point of this- guess smart players in the blinds, or maybe the cutoff, could manipulate the process somehow?
I believe the original point of this (The Hard Rock's UTG Rock) was to make the Rock easier to defend. In a game with tricky plays, if there are limpers and then the button raises, the UTG Rock might be worried about it getting raised behind him and he'll be compelled to fold. Being able to close the action is an enticement to see the flop.

Now, if the straddle is on the button, it can be argued that that is enticement enough to defend.

However, since at my game, preflop limping goes from CO to SB (skipping the button straddle), it makes sense to let the raise skip over the button as well (however, action continues to proceed around the table).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lottery Larry View Post
Don't the blinds always get late preflop action? What did I miss here?
Under a typical Mississippi Straddle, action starts to the immediate left of the straddle, which would be the SB when the straddle is on the button.

This tends to tighten up the blinds if they are competent players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by findingneema View Post
All of my post was indeed referring to what SHOULD happen. If you have bad players, well, that's different.
Yes, and as players get more competent (which I think is happening), I think casinos may adjust by banning Ms. Straddles, or changing the preflop sequence to let the blinds go late. Hopefully they will do that latter.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GeraldGiraffe View Post
Hmm, just seen someone above describing the rock's historical origins as being the way we use it. I don't think it's made it easier to steal, but I play in a very loose game with a lot of gamblers in it so defence of the rock is rampant.

Perhaps I'll suggest using it is a Mississippi rock in the next few games and see how that goes.
I'm pretty sure if you move the rock from utg to the button it's "sucessful defense %" will bump up!


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so is the rock ever cashed out?
Depends on the rules you choose to use. At a home game it should be cashed out when the game breaks. On the other hand, if a player wants to leave early, the house rule can be that it can't be cashed out early, so the player must lose it or sell it or donate it.

I think he Hard Rock doesn't let you cash it out simply because their game has more continuity in it's running, so the game won't break anywhere near the same likelihood as a home game.
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:30 PM   #19
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by dismalstudent99 View Post
I believe the original point of this (The Hard Rock's UTG Rock) was to make the Rock easier to defend.
Last time I played the Hard Rock, the straddle option was button first, then UTG.
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:01 PM   #20
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
No ideas yet, but I figure I won't force it to be played. Maybe someone doesn't like the rock, now s/he has to fight to remove it. I'll give it a game or two, see how it goes.
What's the point of the rock if you can opt to use it or not?
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:43 PM   #21
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

It dawns on me that you may be suggesting that you can only straddle with the rock? Is that what you're saying????


Small tangent... ever play at The Palace game? Its 1-2-2 blinds. Anyone can straddle to $5 and it becomes basically a 2-5 game. The straddler acts last preflop, after the blinds (postflop action is normal).

The thing is, button has last right of straddle. So if he doesn't straddle, someone else can. If he doesn't want that person to straddle, he can slide out a $5 chip and the straddle is his! The other fellow takes his $5 back... or restraddles to $10! If the BU straddles, CO has the last right of re-straddle, and can slide out $10 to pre-empt a straddle from anyone else. Now the CO (or whoever made it $10) acts last preflop, after the blinds and after the button straddle.

Sometimes the dance can take a bit to resolve, as people figure if they want to preempt someone's straddle or not. But once everyone understands how it works, it runs rather smoothly without slowing down the game.
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Old 03-02-2009, 05:37 PM   #22
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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It dawns on me that you may be suggesting that you can only straddle with the rock? Is that what you're saying????
You can only straddle on the button with the Rock.

I think it makes sense for it not to have cash value, that way there's no incentive not to use it.
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Old 03-02-2009, 05:57 PM   #23
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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Originally Posted by pfapfap View Post
You can only straddle on the button with the Rock.

I think it makes sense for it not to have cash value, that way there's no incentive not to use it.
OK, I'm totally confused by needing the rock to straddle. Every other rock I've ever played anyone could straddle, but the owner of the rock had to straddle.

I've also never heard of a rock w/o cash value.

The whole thing's very alien to me. But I guess the point is to change things up, afterall.
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Old 03-02-2009, 06:36 PM   #24
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

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OK, I'm totally confused by needing the rock to straddle. Every other rock I've ever played anyone could straddle, but the owner of the rock had to straddle.
It's an interesting question. Do we still allow the UTG straddle? I don't really want to turn this into a .5/1 game, as the last time I did that it fell apart quickly. Would having the occasional Mississippi Rock hand make others feel like straddling UTG more often on other hands?

Nobody can straddle on the button without the Rock. That's what having the Rock allows you to do. It's a special privilege.

Quote:
I've also never heard of a rock w/o cash value.
If I'm seeding it with my money, it's to prevent anyone from trying to cash it out. Anyone who won the Rock got more in the pot because of it, so I don't think it's a big deal. It's not a hot potato, though; when the game breaks I'll give the owner a dollar if s/he whines about it.

Quote:
The whole thing's very alien to me. But I guess the point is to change things up, afterall.
That's because it's a new thing!
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Old 03-02-2009, 08:25 PM   #25
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Re: Mississippi Rock?

I fear change.
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