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Old 04-15-2017, 04:44 PM   #1
lehee
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Live game stack issue

Greetings,

I play poker weekly with some friends, and I love this game.
But this week we had an issue, and I hope to find the answer on why here.

Ok, so this week I was the bank, as we call it, I was giving out the chips and collecting the money during our cash game. But at the end of the game my bank was short, so I could not take all my winnings, because everybody else was already paid. It's not the end of the world amount I just want to find answer to why and explain it to my friends.

So here is what I think caused the shortage, but I don't know why.
So we were 10 at the table, and at one point, player A, who had lost and already made a few re-buys, told me to give him chips for $100 and he will give me the money later, as his money is in the other room. It's not an issue we trust each other, so he got the chips. Up until this point every chip was covered in the box where we keep the money. But player A has lost this $100 to.
So player B proposed to player player A, that he will give him $150 worth of chips, so he can continue playing. I want to mention here, that player B previously borrowed $100 in cash from player A, and this amount was in the box. This way they resolved the borrowed money between them.
After player A got the chips from player B, he gave me $100 worth of chips, telling me to but them back in the box, so this way he does not to give me the money for the chips he got at the beginning of my story, and so I did. He played with the remaining $50 and he lost that also. Soon the game ended, and I was not able to take all my winnings, because it was shortage in the box.

Now my friends are saying that this should not have caused a shortage because it's not important that someone is borrowing chips to another player, because those chips are covered in the box.

Please help
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Old 04-15-2017, 06:27 PM   #2
br3nt00
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Re: Live game stack issue

have you tried getting out a pen and paper and figuring it out?
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:22 PM   #3
DisRuptive1
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Re: Live game stack issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
Greetings,player A ... told me to give him chips for $100 and he will give me the money later
So player A owes you $100 for 100 in chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
But player A has lost this $100 to.
Doesn't matter, player A owes you $100 for 100 in chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
So player B proposed to player player A, that he will give him $150 worth of chips, so he can continue playing.

player B previously borrowed $100 in cash from player A
Doesn't matter, doesn't affect the bank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
After player A got the chips from player B, he gave me $100 worth of chips
Sounds like the bank is even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
Please help
Player A borrowed 100 in chips from the bank and then paid it back. I see no problem. If your bank is short, then there's another issue at play which you haven't brought up.
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:40 PM   #4
chillrob
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Re: Live game stack issue

What did you do with the chips he gave you back? Any chance you put them in your stack so thought they were winnings?
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:53 PM   #5
Suit
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Re: Live game stack issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
So player A owes you $100 for 100 in chips.



Doesn't matter, player A owes you $100 for 100 in chips.



Doesn't matter, doesn't affect the bank.



Sounds like the bank is even.



Player A borrowed 100 in chips from the bank and then paid it back. I see no problem. If your bank is short, then there's another issue at play which you haven't brought up.
This post is spot on. Your bank is off because you made a mistake somewhere. I don't know how you do it, but most home games run on the theory that if the bank is off, it is on the banker.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:35 AM   #6
OneCrazyDuck
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Re: Live game stack issue

How much was the bank off? Were you using custom chips, or chips that someone could've brought in?
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:33 AM   #7
WereBeer
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Re: Live game stack issue

All I can say is check and re-check whenever money goes in or out of the bank. The money denominates the integrity of the game so you need to get that right.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:03 AM   #8
smoothcriminal99
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Re: Live game stack issue

You were the banker and the bank was off. You're responsible unless you can prove to everyone's satisfaction that someone owed money. Guy owed you 100$ and gave u $100 in chips... how could he possibly owe you more? You could have put it in your stack when he gave you the chips, someone else could have shorted you, you could have been in for $100 more then you thought. It's on you unless everyone can be sure what happened. If you use common chips and think anyone is capable of sneaking on chips then let everyone know to be careful and keep an eye out for someone sneaking on chips.

Just fyi if I ran the bank I'd never do credit... just complicates things and if they have a problem with it worse case someone will just become permanent bank unless you handle it really poorly.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:23 PM   #9
Garick
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Re: Live game stack issue

Quote:
Just fyi if I ran the bank I'd never do credit... just complicates things
This 100%. Every home game I've seen die has died due to players not getting payed at the end of the night. If a player at the table wants to loan someone chips for credit, it is their issue, but bank never, ever operates on credit, imo.
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:34 PM   #10
BigBlue56
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Re: Live game stack issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
Greetings,

I play poker weekly with some friends, and I love this game.
But this week we had an issue, and I hope to find the answer on why here.

Cool. Me too. I've requested that this thread be move to Home Poker.

We've played a long time, and issues do come up. Lots of good suggestions already about how to avoid repeating this one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
Ok, so this week I was the bank, as we call it, I was giving out the chips and collecting the money during our cash game. But at the end of the game my bank was short, so I could not take all my winnings, because everybody else was already paid. It's not the end of the world amount I just want to find answer to why and explain it to my friends.
Yes, we call it the same thing. Exactly how short was it?

When I bank, we self count at the end, and if it's not 100%, then I take a closer look until it is accurate. In the event that it's not, I take the loss (or overage).

Sometimes the amount off and the chip denoms help determine if it was a dirty stack.

Off by a bill amount, maybe forgot to collect the correct amount?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
So here is what I think caused the shortage, but I don't know why.
So we were 10 at the table, and at one point, player A, who had lost and already made a few re-buys, told me to give him chips for $100 and he will give me the money later, as his money is in the other room. It's not an issue we trust each other, so he got the chips. Up until this point every chip was covered in the box where we keep the money. But player A has lost this $100 to.
Not a good idea, to keep a great bank, have him go get the money in the other room. Might help cool him off (most players aren't playing there best if they've made a few rebuys, in excess of what they brought to the table.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
So player B proposed to player player A, that he will give him $150 worth of chips, so he can continue playing.
B should lend cash to player A, not chips. Not many players allow this to happen. Also known as ratholing or going south.

But doesn't impact the bank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
I want to mention here, that player B previously borrowed $100 in cash from player A, and this amount was in the box.
Still not OK to pay it back in chips during the game. After the game, before cashing out, sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
This way they resolved the borrowed money between them.
After player A got the chips from player B, he gave me $100 worth of chips, telling me to but them back in the box, so this way he does not to give me the money for the chips he got at the beginning of my story, and so I did.
OK. You got $100 in chips back, and put them into the box. Strange way to handle it, but I suppose it works out the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
He played with the remaining $50 and he lost that also. Soon the game ended, and I was not able to take all my winnings, because it was shortage in the box.
No matter how things went with his $50, there is no effect on the bank.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lehee View Post
Now my friends are saying that this should not have caused a shortage because it's not important that someone is borrowing chips to another player, because those chips are covered in the box.

Please help
Your friends are correct. Shortages come for many reasons. Selling/lending/transferring chips in play isn't one of them.

Think about it, does each player winning a hand impact the bank? Of course not, so consider the chips moving from player to player the same way.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:56 PM   #11
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Live game stack issue

I host. I bank. I pay myself last. All Shortages and small overages are on me, only. We have an honest crew , but mistakes still happen. Usually totally innocent error. It takes a minute to recheck a cashout. It's worth the time. Hardly anybody minds if you double check somebodys stack. They understand if you are responsible , so make sure they know that you are.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:17 AM   #12
Bantam222
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Re: Live game stack issue

I would recommend op does not bank anymore until he gets better at math.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:57 PM   #13
BigBlue56
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Re: Live game stack issue

We buy in for the same chipstack each week, cash plays and is exchanged around the table as needed. End of game, players self-count and declare chipstacks, get paid and start putting chips away. Odd chips are tossed to the host/bank and he swears it's always right, but I don't normally see him count down his stack or count the remainder of the bank. A problem waiting to happen. I think a couple of times players have noticed that it's off, and big winners give back $20 or something to make it closer to right.

On to last night:

Our regular game host decided not to play. But the table was setup with chipstacks when we arrived, he was home, just didn't play.

I become defacto bank, briefly checked a couple stacks, asked others to check stacks when starting and confirmed the bank amount as players arrived and on one early cash out.

I crushed it, finished with about 40% of the chips in play. /brag

I begin asking players for their counts, pay everyone else out and count my chips. Bank is OVER about $40.

Other players chips are away. My stack is recounted, and verified. Bank is still OVER about $40.

I'm prepared to keep the overage, as I was prepared to eat the loss.

We play a $5 stand up when the chips are away. Everyone puts in $5, we deal 6 or 7 card face up stud with a common, winner scoops. If the host doesn't play, we still deal him a hand without his $5.

Last night, one of the leaders suggested either giving it to the host, who wouldn't accept it, or putting it into the stand up, in addition to player contributions. It went to the stand up.

I suspect that will lead to a change in our cash out policy. He insisted that any shortage of that amount would have been absorbed by all players. I believe him, but suspect that it will happen with some reluctance.

When I host, players are directed to keep chipstacks and payouts in front of their spots, until the bank is confirmed. We've found dirty stacks and non-standard stacks to be the cause of all recent discrepancies, and there aren't really often.

Still a bit puzzled about the overage. If I have to bank again, I'll recount all stacks going out (they might have each been short $5), and insist that players not move chips or I'll double counts as I pay each out.

I've also suggested that the initial chipstacks be increased, as there are plenty of chips and many players put cash on the table to start. It's a spread limit game, but 12 max bets might not make it through the first orbit if you're loose or unlucky.
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:46 AM   #14
bigpeen
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Re: Live game stack issue

As the banker you should be responsible.

I dont care what the other players are talking about with borrowing or "fronting" or whatever..

Your job is exchanging money for chips and thats it. Only handing out chips when you have money accounted for and ONLY YOU going into the chip case and money area.

Much more simplified, just make an announcement at the start of a game or when the note gets sent out to your players...

Also: it does help to write your players down and note initial buy ins and rebuys.
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:10 AM   #15
MIB211
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Re: Live game stack issue

Banker has to own any shortage in the bank, and should get to keep any overage.

I often bank for friendly games at work retreats. Usually there's a slight overage, because no one has exact change and it all gets rounded down (i.e. if someone cashes out for $305, they'll usually take $300 if no one has change). One time the bank was short. When I redid the math when sober the next day, I realized it was because I bought in again, and didn't put the money in the bank (because I was banker anyway). I bet that's the case of the vast majority of shortages.
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Old 04-27-2017, 12:13 AM   #16
Fergdog
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Re: Live game stack issue

One of the games that I play at and has been running for years uses what I think is a crazy system of half value chips. You get $200 in chips for $100, and the game plays as 1/2. The cash game runs when people bust out of the rebuy tourney, so can have different people as banker. I can think of at least several times when the cash-out has been way off, as people try to divide their stack in half to figure out the cash value...
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