Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Home Poker Discussions of home poker games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-22-2011, 09:30 PM   #1
kbinferno
adept
 
kbinferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 846
Issue with family members views on cash games

My uncle and I have been interested in poker for a long time. I played some before I knew he did. He plays in bar leagues here and there, and all of his play has been tournament style. We both are part of a leaderboard tournament that runs five times a year with a $25 buy in. Every week, or bi-weekly, he hosts a $10 buy in tournament (that usually gets <9 ppl, mainly family members who play casually).

The person who runs this leaderboard tournament hosts cash games every once in awhile, and about three months ago I convinced him to come with me to one of them. Since he primarily plays tournaments, I just told him that cash games are like a tournament, except the blinds don't change, and to win, instead of trying to own all the chips, you leave with more chips than you came with.

This uncle has been closer to me than my parents. He's very interested in my college life and makes sure my grades are good, and that I'm properly allocating my time. His argument is that he is afraid that I am going to be "addicted" to poker. This cash game is .25/.50, with a max buy-in of $100. Everyone there is lag, and when I explained to him I was going there with a hundo, he said that it was "a lot of money". He owns a business so I know he isn't worried about his money, but he's definitely more worried about me.

This cash game is taking place tomorrow night. He called me today and asked me exactly why we were going. I pretty much said "just to do it, as an experience". He said that nothing good can come of this, that if I emerge a winner I will want to come back, and if I lose money I'll want to come back to win my losses. I responded with how I've been to other, higher stakes live games and regularly grind online for slightly less stakes (which he knows). He then asked if I was "already addicted". This frustrated me, as I'm up lifetime and am not one of the people who lose their bankroll, redeposit it, lose it, rinse and repeat.

I ended up just saying that I'm more responsible than that and he has nothing to worry about. He didn't seem very convinced, but he did give me his word prior that we would both go to this event. He is also afraid that if people are beat, they'll leave with a bitter taste in their mouth, and nothing but a negative atmosphere can result. These players play at least once a month, and even the host has a "no *******s" rule, and if you're getting angry with the players you won't be asked back.

How can I show him that it's not that bad, and that I'm in control of my gambling hobby?
kbinferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2011, 10:12 PM   #2
Ranma4703
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,647
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

You need to point out to him that you are responsible with your money, and $100 is not a lot of money for you (you are properly rolled, right?) and you are +ev in the game (you are right?).

Really, the problem I see is in your phrase 'gambling hobby'. This isn't a gambling hobby, this is a money making hobby. If you are a loser in the game then your Uncle is probably doing you a favor. A LAGy $100 game plays big.
Ranma4703 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2011, 10:37 PM   #3
kbinferno
adept
 
kbinferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 846
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

This is my first time going to this game, but it's the same crowd as the leaderboard. Which I am second in, and he is first in. But, this isn't my first .25/.50 game.

I'm afraid if I say it's a money making hobby, he'll interpret it as a replacement for a job. Gah.

I have like 1k between FTP and cash. $100 is a lot to my bankroll but not a big deal. I guarantee the game will be +EV.

I can just see it now. I go all in with a strong hand vs. a strong draw, draw gets there, uncle in car ride "I knew this would happen". Me: facepalm
kbinferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2011, 10:58 PM   #4
avaholic
old hand
 
avaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: At my desk
Posts: 1,805
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinferno View Post
I have like 1k between FTP and cash. $100 is a lot to my bankroll but not a big deal. I guarantee the game will be +EV.
So, essentially for this game you have 10 buy ins. I don't care how +EV you think the game is, you are under rolled.

Not really sure how to respond to the rest...

You know your uncle better than we do. I personally think it's great that a member of your family shows that much interest in you and cares about your well being enough to be concerned that you are making good decisions. To me, it seems like poker is just a fun social event that he partakes in every so often and does not understand things involved around the game. Perhaps a little education for him could help? Do you have a job as well? I know you said you were a student, but do you have other income or student aid? Perhaps that is part of his concern.

While I don't think you are required to prove anything to your uncle, you obviously respect his opinion enough to make this thread. I think the best thing to do if you want him to be comfortable with your poker playing is to make sure that you are taking care of your responsibilities with school and everything else that is going on and after time it will take care of itself.
avaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2011, 11:07 PM   #5
kbinferno
adept
 
kbinferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 846
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Underrolled for multi-tabling but tbh 10 buy-ins live is more than enough imo. Especially with this crowd. Thanks for the advice, I'll try to bring up the fact that all of my priorities are taken care of.
kbinferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2011, 11:24 PM   #6
Lottery Larry
Home Poker Pimp
 
Lottery Larry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: HP in da HOOWWSSS! (NW of Philly)
Posts: 19,603
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Why the **** do you need your uncle to go with you? What are you trying to accomplish, here?

It's best that you downplay your involvment in poker, imo, given the expressed concerns of your uncle. From one perspective (looking out for college boy, don't want him to get addicted), I can see where he's coming from...

Where are YOU coming from? What are you trying to prove to your uncle, and why?

I'd seriously think about what's motivating you here, that you're insisting that he go to the cash game with you. Not much good can come from it, from what I'm reading.
Lottery Larry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 12:52 AM   #7
kbinferno
adept
 
kbinferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 846
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

He thinks he's really good at poker, but all he's been doing has been playing tournaments. I've been trying to improve his game by getting experienced in cash games. I've tried showing him online poker but he isn't very computer savvy. I'm not really trying to prove to him anything. But you did kind of make me realize something, that there's no real point to going.

I can go alone, but I don't have transportation. And the bus is meh. So I guess that's a reason. Plus it would be awkward if I went alone.

It's not like this is a random assembly of people. The crowd here is the same crowd we get together with to do a MTT five times a year. The dealer & house of the establishment is the runner of the MTT. It's an older crowd; I'll definitely be the youngest.
kbinferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 01:10 AM   #8
Koko the munkey
veteran
 
Koko the munkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 2,895
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Quote:
Originally Posted by avaholic View Post
So, essentially for this game you have 10 buy ins. I don't care how +EV you think the game is, you are under rolled.

Not really sure how to respond to the rest...
This attitude has always bugged me. At some point, presuming you have a source of income other than poker, a game has to be small enough that there's no such thing as being under rolled. If you have to worry about bankroll management for a .25/.50 game you probably aren't at the point in your poker career where you need to worry about bankroll management at all.
Koko the munkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 02:40 AM   #9
gedanken
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
gedanken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: <--clowns, jokers-->
Posts: 6,283
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinferno View Post
How can I show him that it's not that bad, and that I'm in control of my gambling hobby?

This is like that sequence in Shawshank where Morgan Freeman explains every way he knows how that he's a reformed criminal and gets rejected for parole every time. Then when he finally tells the parole board off and says "I don't know if I'm reformed or not, you tell me" they finally believe him.

The truth is, you DON'T know how well you'll handle gambling in the long term. Having played some micro-stakes online and some ~$1/2 live and up a few bucks lifetime isn't a big sample size, and not what puts people to the test. Many of the worst gambling addicts start out playing for chump change and/or beating the competition.

You might be better off saying "To be honest, I don't know, Uncle. So far, I feel like this hobby works for me and I'm not compulsive about it. I'm learning a lot about intelligent decision-making from it, and also about myself. I like having you around, though, so you can tell me if I'm not being rational. I know it's hard to see these things sometimes and it's good to have someone I can trust keeping an eye on me".

Make no mistake, people can ruin their lives with gambling. You don't want to be one of those people, and feeling good about how it's going now is no evidence that it's not in your future.



Quote:
max buy-in of $100. Everyone there is lag, and when I explained to him I was going there with a hundo.
You're only bringing one buyin? That's a warning sign that your expectations are suspect. Or maybe that's shot-taking money and a stop-loss, but I'm not sure I'm hearing you say that.
gedanken is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 08:44 AM   #10
eneely
newbie
 
eneely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 9,791
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

It is hard for anyone here to give you advice on this. We don't know you and we don't know your uncle. We don't know if he is being overly-worried about you, or whether he has some reason for legitimate concern.

We are only getting your side of this. If your uncle posts his views here, maybe that counterpoint would help us discuss this in a meaningful way.
eneely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 09:27 AM   #11
dirkkuyt
stranger
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 10
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

I've had this too with my older brother about gambling online. In the end, it's all about how responsible you believe yourself to be.

I think the best thing to do is tell your uncle you believe yourself to be responsible enough to handle gambling. And if for whatever reason you realize you can't handle it, he's going to be the first person you'll go to for advice.
dirkkuyt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 09:54 AM   #12
eneely
newbie
 
eneely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 9,791
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Unless his uncle is already onto something, and kbinferno cannot see the symptoms of a problem he is already exhibiting.

Again, I have no idea if this is true or not. There is not enough information to go on.

If someone were to say, "My girlfriend says I drink too much, but I don't think I do. I drink, but I can handle it. What do you think?" How can we respond? Do we say, "Hey, keep drinking and tell your girlfriend you are OK. You'll know if you are drinking too much, and you can ask her for help if you realize you are." Someone could kill themselves with that advice.

The simple truth is that many people do not realize they have an addiction until they are very deep into it. Some, not even then.
eneely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 10:59 AM   #13
Brooklyn_Zoo
centurion
 
Brooklyn_Zoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooklyn, son.
Posts: 144
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

How old are OP and uncle?
Brooklyn_Zoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 12:14 PM   #14
psandman
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
psandman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 15,832
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

How about inviting him to join you for something other than gambling. Go to a sporting event, or go fishing, or whatever it is you guys like to do other than gambling. If he is concerned that you gamble to much, prove him wrong by involving him in the other things you like to do.

Because it seems to me a very valid concern when the only thing he sees you doing is playing poker, and when he expresses that concern you point out him that you actually play more than he was aware.
psandman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 12:25 PM   #15
kbinferno
adept
 
kbinferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 846
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Thanks for the responses. As I see this thread go on, my expectations switch from getting solutions, to getting thought provoking feedback.
Quote:
You might be better off saying "To be honest, I don't know, Uncle. So far, I feel like this hobby works for me and I'm not compulsive about it. I'm learning a lot about intelligent decision-making from it, and also about myself. I like having you around, though, so you can tell me if I'm not being rational. I know it's hard to see these things sometimes and it's good to have someone I can trust keeping an eye on me".
This is something I'll probably say. If I voice myself as knowing what will and won't happen, I'll seem naive in his eyes. Thank you for the advice.
Quote:
You're only bringing one buyin? That's a warning sign that your expectations are suspect. Or maybe that's shot-taking money and a stop-loss, but I'm not sure I'm hearing you say that.
When I go to a live cash game, I usually bring two buy-ins. I had already set aside the $100 for the game, then I found out that max buy-in is $100, and also that most people buy in full. If it were just me going to this game, I would bring two buy-ins ($200), but I think that wouldn't be the best given the situation. Also, I misrepresented my bankroll. I had about 3k total, but I had to dip into that for college, as some financial aid was misrepresented, etc etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn_Zoo View Post
How old are OP and uncle?
I'm 18 and uncle is ~60.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eneely View Post
Unless his uncle is already onto something, and kbinferno cannot see the symptoms of a problem he is already exhibiting.
I know I have nothing to prove to you, but to better see things from my point of view, and hope to see how my uncle may be misunderstanding

I've never shown signs of an addictive personality (judging from some signs I read about). I've always been fairly studious; schoolwork first then free-time. He knows that, and part of me thinks that he thinks this is one of the hobbies that, since it has to do with money, will eventually consume me. I tried to explain to him the self-exclude option, and how I regularly take advantage of it when I'm tilting and/or sick to avoid losses, but I don't think he quite understands that. Which sucks, cause I believe that would aid in my trying to prove my fiscal responsibility.

Another thing is I don't play all day every day. I only play when I'm at my dorm, because that's where I'm most comfortable. I usually play enough to make Iron Man for that day, and no more unless I have some momentum on the session, which I'll ride out and quit soon after. This results in a <2hr session. And I only play when I don't have any homework that needs completion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psandman View Post
How about inviting him to join you for something other than gambling. Go to a sporting event, or go fishing, or whatever it is you guys like to do other than gambling. If he is concerned that you gamble to much, prove him wrong by involving him in the other things you like to do.

Because it seems to me a very valid concern when the only thing he sees you doing is playing poker, and when he expresses that concern you point out him that you actually play more than he was aware.
That's a good point. I probably made it seem worse. Being in college full-time makes activities off-campus inconvenient, since he'd have to drive ~1hr one way to come get me. During the summer though, the two of us get together and skeet shoot, crab, and do yardwork.
kbinferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 12:44 PM   #16
Keenan
old hand
 
Keenan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Punt City
Posts: 1,336
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

I think you've done enough already. You have no need to explain yourself.

Obviously it's great your family takes an interest in you and try to look out for you, but sometimes you just have to not care what others think.
Keenan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 01:23 PM   #17
eneely
newbie
 
eneely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 9,791
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinferno View Post
I know I have nothing to prove to you, but to better see things from my point of view, and hope to see how my uncle may be misunderstanding

I've never shown signs of an addictive personality (judging from some signs I read about). I've always been fairly studious; schoolwork first then free-time. He knows that, and part of me thinks that he thinks this is one of the hobbies that, since it has to do with money, will eventually consume me. I tried to explain to him the self-exclude option, and how I regularly take advantage of it when I'm tilting and/or sick to avoid losses, but I don't think he quite understands that. Which sucks, cause I believe that would aid in my trying to prove my fiscal responsibility.

Another thing is I don't play all day every day. I only play when I'm at my dorm, because that's where I'm most comfortable. I usually play enough to make Iron Man for that day, and no more unless I have some momentum on the session, which I'll ride out and quit soon after. This results in a <2hr session. And I only play when I don't have any homework that needs completion.
OK, fair enough. You make a good case that your head is on straight.

It is not uncommon for people to be wary of any type of gambling. The odd thing here is that your uncle is a poker player himself, and as such I would not expect him to have negative feelings about poker in general. So, try to step into his shoes for a few moments and think about where he is coming from. Why do you think he feels this way?
eneely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2011, 01:37 PM   #18
Heya
old hand
 
Heya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,463
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Grunch: Sounds like you're sort of peer pressuring your uncle into gambling in a manner he is uncomfortable with. I'd suggest laying off of him.
Heya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2011, 11:47 AM   #19
coachklowco
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: C-Bus
Posts: 184
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinferno View Post
He then asked if I was "already addicted". This frustrated me, as I'm up lifetime and am not one of the people who lose their bankroll, redeposit it, lose it, rinse and repeat.
True, addiction stories typically include the crash and burn scenario, but don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you run good and/or are successful that addiction isn't possible. Addiction is manifested in the behavior. It is not exclusively result-oriented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinferno View Post
I guarantee the game will be +EV.
Careful. This kind of reasoning will not convince your uncle (or others) of anything except that you are confident in your abilities and determined to play in a game at little to no cost. While there are advantages to certain elements of a game that could and should make it +EV, no game is guaranteed to profit.


It also seems to me that the more you try and state your point of view to your uncle the steeper the hill is you are climbing. If he chooses not to attend the game, so be it. Just understand that he is looking out for your best interest. While you or I and many others don't believe a quarter/fifty cash game is a big deal, your uncle has concerns and his point is valid - The numbers don't matter. The evidence is in the behavior. Whether or not it's an issue now, later, or never, having this kind of influence in your life, especially at your age, is truly +EV.
coachklowco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2011, 11:52 AM   #20
eneely
newbie
 
eneely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 9,791
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

^ Good post. These are important points.

I wonder how many professional poker players have a gambling addiction, but it is masked because of their success. On the other hand, you hear of many of these players going bust, or at least losing back all of their profits eventually.

And to say you know you can beat the game may be true, but can you understand how this statement could be worrisome to your uncle. Confidence is good, but as it is written, "Pride goeth before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall."
eneely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2011, 01:09 PM   #21
Schmendr1ck
(╯□)╯︵ 🐟
 
Schmendr1ck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 6,555
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

Quote:
Originally Posted by eneely View Post
I wonder how many professional poker players have a gambling addiction, but it is masked because of their success.
Quite a few, I'd bet. I've heard of many successful pros who throw away lots of their winnings at high-stakes -EV table games like craps. I hate to name names, but one of them rhymes with "Phil Ivey."
Schmendr1ck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2011, 01:16 PM   #22
Koko the munkey
veteran
 
Koko the munkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 2,895
Re: Issue with family members views on cash games

And "TJ Cloutier"

Another name comes to mind too. One of the greatest NLHE players in history and he also had a HUGE gambling addiction. So much that he could never hang on to his winnings long enough to repay his gambling debts. I'm speaking of him in the past tense so you probably figured out that I'm talking about Stu Ungar.
Koko the munkey is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online