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Old 04-14-2018, 04:22 PM   #1
P_Nitti
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Home Game Ruling

This is from a home game where the players self deal and perform some of the traditional dealer functions themselves. A disputed situation came up in our monthly tournament.

Player 1: Bets 4,000 on the flop
Player 2: Pushes out a stack of 500 chips without saying anything
Player 1: Asks. "How much is that? Double my bet?"
Player 2: Answers. "Yes"
Player 1: Puts out another 4,000 in chips.

Here's where things go off the rails. It turns out the stack of chips actually totals 10,000 and not 8,000.

Ruling 1: I presume the full 10,000 chips must remain in the pot?
Ruling 2: How much is Player 1 obligated to commit?
Option A: By indicating a call, Player 1 owes the full 10,000 and not 8,000.
Option B: Only the 8,000 must remain in the pot from Player 1.
Option C: Player 1 can start the decision over with the correct info.
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Old 04-14-2018, 06:44 PM   #2
cashed
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Re: Home Game Ruling

It depends on how friendly this game is, but, considering it's self-dealt then I'll assume it's also a group of friendly players.

Given those assumptions, I think that option C is clearly the correct outcome.
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:36 PM   #3
psandman
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Re: Home Game Ruling

Question. Who usually counts bets in the game? The player dealing or the 0layers making the bets themselves?
If the standard is to wait for the dealer to count it I'm less inclined to let the player off here .... If the standard is to get the count from the bettor I'm more inclined to release him from his action.

Last edited by psandman; 04-14-2018 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 04-15-2018, 02:12 AM   #4
P_Nitti
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Re: Home Game Ruling

The person actually distributing the cards often doesn't get involved in counting the pot
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:05 AM   #5
sw_emigre
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Re: Home Game Ruling

Everybody involved gets a KITN (kick in the nuts), and I back it up from there.

IF THIS IS A FRIENDLY GAME, AND ASSUMING everyone involved is a decent person and not inclined to any kind of angleshooting, I will say that while their dialogue was ambiguous, "Is that double?" "Yes," is close enough to asking if it's 8000 and saying yes that I'll rule that's it's an 8K bet. (I hope you know that in a casino this logic is laughable.)

If the raiser gets mad at this, it makes me think that he knew exactly that the chips were more than 8K and gave a technical truth but a very misleading answer. And ymmv, but in my home games and mtts I have zero patience for any BS like this. I want to get back to my own great beer and bad bluffs, not police people who push the line.

I AM FINE WITH A STRICTER RULING if your games have "casino rules" as their standard, in which case the chips over the line were 10K, and technically the raiser did not violate any rules.

I have run both friendly donkfests full of regs, and 3 table mtts with a bunch of new faces. (Both rake-free.) In both cases, I often give players one free **** up, because while in the mtts I run by strict rules, it's still a cheap game in my basement, and I'm aiming for a legit but friendly vibe.

Hope this helps.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:38 AM   #6
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Home Game Ruling

Home game dynamics can vary as to strict rulings from place to place certainly. In this case , as host, I would hold player 2 to the 8000 as he stated was his raise. Nobody in our crew would object to this "house ruling" to keep the game moving and keep the atmosphere good. If you are going to be stricter at this kind of friendly self dealt type game (which is the majority of venues) you need to have somebody actually count the raise IMHO.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:05 AM   #7
psandman
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Re: Home Game Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
Home game dynamics can vary as to strict rulings from place to place certainly. In this case , as host, I would hold player 2 to the 8000 as he stated was his raise. Nobody in our crew would object to this "house ruling" to keep the game moving and keep the atmosphere good. If you are going to be stricter at this kind of friendly self dealt type game (which is the majority of venues) you need to have somebody actually count the raise IMHO.
I'm not sure player 2 stated his raise was 8000. Obviously being there would give a paerson a better feel for it but when I read it .... I initially thought player one was questioning whether it was enough to be a raise ..... And player 2s answer was that yes this is big enough to be a raise. So what he was answering was " is that at least double my wager?"

Again the way things get said as well as how it is usually done in the game are factors those of us not part of the game can't really unde4stand
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:39 PM   #8
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Re: Home Game Ruling

Who knows what really happened and how it was said , as you posted. The OP says it was 4000 initially , either stated or counted by somebody maybe? Later the question was " is that doubled" ? answer " yes". 8000?? Seems pretty straight forward for a friendly home game verbal exchange and the ruling I suggested seems adequate to me. Of course other groups may want to rule differently as their group structure and preferences dictate.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:37 AM   #9
dmccoy87
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Re: Home Game Ruling

Option C.

The exception to this is if Player 2 has consistently done stuff like this in the past (unclear actions that cause confusion), then I go with ruling 1 to get a point across. Otherwise a friendly and fair atmosphere is paramount.
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