At our weekly homegame, I was in a 3way hand on the flop, action checked to the button, who is considering action. Dealer doesn't notice he's still in the hand, and quickly burns and turns 4th street. Everybody starts going crazy, button still wants an opportunity to bet flop, Player #2 likes the turn and wants to make sure it stays. I'm sitting with trip Ks and hoping button gets a chance to bet flop as well. So what is the ruling? We ended up taking back the turn, allowing button action on flop, then reshuffling the deck, including the previously-dealt turn card and all burns (but excluding folded hands), and dealing a new turn. Is that correct?

Almost correct. Typically the premature turn card is set aside, betting is then completed and another burn and turn card is put out. This new turn card is what would have been the original river card. Then turn betting is done. Once completed dealer puts only the premature burn card back into the deck, shuffles and puts out the river without a burn. No need for new burn since the top card is going to be turned face up immediately


Another method has the premature card going back in immediately and a reshuffle. Pull just that card back, finish betting and then shuffle and put out the new turn with no new burn (it's already on the table.) Similiar to what you did just no burn cards This gives the card two chances, it could come again on turn or be the river, where the other way it only has the one chance to reappear on river.

Personally I'm okay with either way as long as it's consistent

The premature turn never plays. From Roberts Rules:

Hope this helps!

You guys are awesome, thanks so much.

I prefer the immediate re-shuffle, no burn, and turn.

If the turn is set aside, then it has no chance of re-appearing on the turn. If it's re-shuffled, people think it won't come on the turn again, but it has a chance. It changes things.

There's nothing wrong with this procedure as long as it is specified in your ruleset. Especially since it is in contradiction to RRoP. (Yes, I realize every home game doesn't use RRoP.)

The last burn card and the prematurely exposed turn card are shuffeled back into the remaining deck then action for that round is compleated, burn and turn. Your game is back on track.

Some may disagree with the burn card being shuffeled back in and I understand the argument. However this is the reason that you see professonal dealers keep the burn cards seperate from the discards.

While it is ideal to follow correct procedures in any game, in a rotating deal game complicated dealing procedures often are not practical. The KISS system may be the best. For instance: Board cards exposed before the round of betting is compleate are declared dead, burn card goes back on top of the deck the exposed card/cards go into the muck, action is compleated. This may be the best policy for many rotating deal games. Since this is something that is sure to come up from time to time it should be talked about with your group so that there is no question about how to handle it.

The Professional Poker Dealers Handbook by: Don Playmar, Donna Harris, and Mason Malmuth, is the best resource I have found for resolving/answering procedure or rule issues that may come up during a game. I've found it much easier to use that a rule book.

Absolutely not. If you use this non-standard method, there is no reason to justify shuffling the burn card into the deck. You complete action then shuffle ONLY the premature turn with the stub.

But a good reason to do RRoP's way is to try to avoid exposing the stub to the players in the hand giving them even more information then the premature burn card did. There is a chance the "river turn" will produce action so it won't make it to the river. Most players I have seen do not shuffle properly and will expose cards to anyone paying close attention.

As posted twice above, the widely used home game ruleset, Roberts Rule of Poker, explicitly states the burn card is NOT reshuffled into the stub for the rest of the hand.

Also, exposed cards never go into the muck, they get reshuffled back so there is a chance they can reappear.

And you rake your game?

Dam it Aidan your right! Just looked it up. I should have done that 1st!

No procedure is "wrong" provided you codify it.

If you've got a sophisticated group, I prefer Robert's explanation - and it's what we use, since we're established.

If you've got an unsophisticated or overly superstitious group, then you can simply to any "just shuffle 'em back in" solution that either involves or doesn't involve the burns.

I've seen this handled a different way, and I believe it's superior to RROP's suggestion. But no one has ever published Bri's Rules of Poker, so i could be wrong. But here is what I would do.

1)A card is burned, and the turn card is exposed pre-maturely.
2) Stop play, remove the prematurely exposed card from the board, and conclude the betting round.
3) Burn a card, then deal the river, face down.
4) Insert the prematurely exposed turn card back into the stub
5) Shuffle, cut, and deal the turn card, with no burn.
6) If the hand continues to the river, just turn over the river card.

to me, this seems to better satisfy Robert's idea to rectify the situation in a "manner to least influence the identity of the boardcards that would have been used without the error."

I kinda like this idea. Nice work on the Bri-RoP.

The problem with this method is that it defeats one of the purposes of a burn card, which is to hide the board card underneath. And I strongly dislike pre-dealing any board cards; there is great potential for confusion, folded hands can get mucked into the board, etc.

RRoP's procedure works just fine for me.

Thanks. It seems so obvious though that it's likely Mr. Robert would have thought of this himself.

So I'm feeling like there might be some reason that we don't do this, but it's not clear to me.

Anyone?

Basically, 100% what Schemdrick said above you. Your plan doesn't work for the entire reason we burn cards and don't pre deal boards.

Thanks, I didn't see his post until after I put up mine.

I understand those concerns, but wouldn't this situation warrant an exception. Are we willing to rearrange the board to avoid pre-dealing ONE card? I know what the rule says, I'm just not sure I agree with it.

I admit, I've seen 101 different scenarios of misdealed boards and if you gave me a quiz on how to handle each one, I'm not sure I would get them all right. But my general rule of thumb in those situations is to preserve the order of the board like it's the endangered albino sabertooth spotted owl.

I admit, it's only a minor variation, so I guess in the scheme of things it doesn't really matter.

But if I did it the Bri way at my next home game, would I be WAY out of line?

Those recently came off the endangered list. They found a new colony in the Amazon.

Would the Bri way be completely out of line? No. But its the same odds as RROP, so its really just keeping the river card the river vs. Confusion of a predealt board card.

A predealt board card leads to:

Board card getting mucked or mucked into
Potentially flashed when dealt
A feeling that pre dealing boardcards is ok
An unusual dealing circumstance (dealer burns and turns river when predealt river is there, forgets where predealt river is, flips burn instead, etc...)


I personally wouldn't use that rule in my game... but I wouldn't leave a game that decided to do it that way...

I hate bri's method, no offense intended sir, for the reasons Schmendrick states. We don't preload boards because that's a bonanza for card markers, or people who might suspect card marking.

Very often under the RRoP method, you never have to reshuffle at all. The hand ends on the flop or turn a large percentage of the time, so there's a big speed advantage and a lot less handling of the stub in the middle of a hand.

I just saw an excellent response in the B&M forum that explains mathematically why you should do it the "normal" way according to RRoP:

What's Roberts Rule? Where can I get the tda rules? Follow me here everyone. By doing it this way the new turn is what the river would've been...but you're not mixing in the preexposed card into the new turn. If I KNOW the accidentally exposed card completed the flush for example AND you didn't shuffle it in, the odds have changed and I know I have one less out. This doesn't seem right at all.

Holy thread necromancy!

No one really uses Robert's Rules anymore, though they were pretty standard back in 2011. Most rooms use the TDA rules, even for cash, these days. They are easy to find on google.

LOL.

I am the rules nit and often refer back to what I remember about RROP to make decisions in our home game. I'll have to give the TDA cash rules a read.