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View Poll Results: Was it a fold?
Yes 1 7.69%
No 12 92.31%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-26-2018, 12:39 AM   #1
Mackbet5
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Forward Motion Ruling

Hey guys,

First post on the forum because I really want to hear the opinions of others.

Here's what happened:

Heads up, Villain is on the button, Goes Check Bet Call on the flop ad river. We are playing Short Deck so a Flush beats a Full House.

Board A 10 8 A 7 Wth 4 diamonds.

On the river I shove trying to rep the flush. Villain is visibly tilted as he thinks his full house is now beat by a rivered 4 flush. He stands says a couple things and then verbally says "F*** you have me beat" and lightly tosses his hand face-up onto the table. I now snap show him my bluff and begin to scoop the pot.

Now it's tricky, villain claims that he didn't fold and we mearly "showing me his hand to get a read", and that he was actually going to call and that his cards never went into the muck.

I claim that by verbally saying "F*** you have me beat" and then proceeding to toss your card face up right after is considered forward motion and a fold, thus why i snap showed him my bluff.

So essentially i believe it was forward motion and a fold and he thinks his cards were still live.

I'd love to hear some other thoughts,

Cheers and vote below to give me a better idea!

Side note: The toss only went as far as his chips but because he was standing behind his chair the distance the cards travelled was much greater then if he were to be sitting.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:46 AM   #2
BigBlue56
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

House and room rules vary. In our home games, it's no action. In a casino or proper room, they should have rules.

Absent other information/rules I'm not calling that a fold as played. Not ruling it a call either. Action is on V/BTN.

What would make me rule it a fold?
-- He says "I fold."
-- He tosses the cards face down into the muck.

Everything else in the middle is subject to a ruling, assuming the rules aren't clear.

You failed to protect your action. Some would accuse you of angling to get his hand folded. There was no reason to 'fast roll' your hand and show right away. Wait for his hand to be mucked, then show your bluff. If you had a winner in this case, I'm not awarding you the call either. He has not acted, you essentially bet and showed.
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Old 07-26-2018, 01:12 AM   #3
DisRuptive1
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

He made no actionable play such as verbalizing his fold by saying the word FOLD or having his cards mucked in a way that makes them irretrievable. I don't know why you'd show your hand if you don't have to.
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:58 AM   #4
BDHarrison
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

It depends on house rules. As far as I can tell, in some rooms, it is a muck if the cards are released face-down in a forward motion, but not if they are face-up.

One behavior that helps prevent a lot of problems is to hold on to your cards until the dealer pushes you the pot. (You can take back your last bet, but you shouldn't scoop the chips in the middle on your own.) Wait until you have the chips, then show your bluff.
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:40 AM   #5
steamraise
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackbet5 View Post
I now snap show him my bluff and begin to scoop the pot.
Time to re-think that move?
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:40 AM   #6
football0020
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

A little bit angley by villain, but not a fold. Learn to control yourself and stuff like this won't happen to you.
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:45 AM   #7
dinesh
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

Home game rules are even more varied than casino rules, which also vary widely on this point.

But even in rooms with a forward motion rule, the motion needs to go past his chips and his cards to be considered an action. The fact that he is standing would also be less relevant, because in a casino you are generally not allowed to stand while playing a live untabled hand.

Also, more latitude might be given to a hand thrown forward face up. I might give such a player an instant to see if this was followed by calling chips or verbal declaration. On the other hand, Face down and forward motion pasty our cards while facing action should nearly always be a fold.

All told, I would probably rule this that the player hasn't yet acted and it's on him.

But again, home game. The rules are whatever you guys want them to be. Including playing a game called short deck, where a flush beats a boat.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:04 AM   #8
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

In a game where a fush beats a full house , not that there is anything wrong with that, I would expect some allowance for what is a fold and what is not. I would hope that a verbal declaration of "fold" or he or the dealer actually mucking the cards would be what is required. In this case he exposed his hand face up and made NO offical declaration of fold. Also the cards were NOT mucked and were retrievable. Now some places have different takes on this , but most rooms allow the hand to be live. Best hand wins yadda yadda. Home games rules and structures vary a lot , and that's also cool. Does this game/host have a distinct rule on this? If not, get one. This situation can happen again very easily!
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:31 AM   #9
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

Just Googled Short Deck Poker. Seems a legit variant of NLH to me , but not something I would add to our rotation. Still it would , to me , seem not relevant to whether it was a fold or not.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:21 PM   #10
Mackbet5
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
Just Googled Short Deck Poker. Seems a legit variant of NLH to me , but not something I would add to our rotation. Still it would , to me , seem not relevant to whether it was a fold or not.
Ya man great game you should check it out, the Triton High roller Series is currently live and features this variant.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:22 PM   #11
Mackbet5
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

Thank you for the replies from everyone. It seems we were both in the wrong but it was my mistake for acting to fast. I'll learn from this one!
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Old 07-26-2018, 02:41 PM   #12
steamraise
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

I rarely show a bluff.

I never ever ever ever ever ever show a bluff when a better hand is laying withing reach of my opponent.
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Old 07-26-2018, 05:06 PM   #13
Mackbet5
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

Quote:
Originally Posted by steamraise View Post
I rarely show a bluff.

I never ever ever ever ever ever show a bluff when a better hand is laying withing reach of my opponent.
I usually don't but we were heads up for awhile and it was a pretty sick bluff that I thought got through.

You live and you learn.
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:36 PM   #14
dmccoy87
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Re: Forward Motion Ruling

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Originally Posted by Mackbet5 View Post
Thank you for the replies from everyone. It seems we were both in the wrong but it was my mistake for acting to fast. I'll learn from this one!
I agree, you made a mistake here and you are (primarily) in the wrong.

That said, if I was in villain's shoes I would refrain from this sort of action in the future.
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