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Old 11-15-2017, 07:19 PM   #1
ShowMeUrAce
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Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Hi folks,

I'd like to ask your opinion on a situation that happened tonight in my regular friendly home game :

I got A8 on the Button
My opponent got A5 on SB

We're 4 to limp to that flop : A36
SB opens to 4BB, MP calls, one guy folds and I call
Turn is the 8
SB leads again to 5BB, MP folds, I raise to 20BB
Before SB could act, dealer dealt the Q

I was very frustrated about not having the possibility to know for sure if he would have called my raise or not.
I have to admit that good logic would say that he would had called for sure and hit his missing on river, thus winning the pot whatever the action was on river.
BUT my opinion is we can't simply "suppose" he would had called my raise, he "probably" would had, but he didn't have the possibility since the card was dealt before...

My opponent suggested we kept this river but nobody could bet on river and the winning hand would take the pot (meaning him), but I said "hey no man, I can't know for sure you would had called my turn raise, that's not fair".

2 or 3 other people were shouting, said I was wrong, it was big mess and everybody wanted to move on to the next hand, so we finally decided to share the pot equally (my opponent was not upset at all about this situation), and at this point one other player called me a "sore loser" and a "f**kin miser".
I wanted to propose a deal, like dealing another river for the entire pot or something like that to make things really fair, but people just wanted to move on and I was kinda frustrated to have that "sore loser" image, especially when other players didn't really understand what the action really was (they didn't understand that I raised him, thus making him to face a decision).

Just for the anecdote, at the end of the game, I picked the entire deck and told my opponent I would deal a random card as a 2nd river for the hand that occurred and if that was a again, I would give him my share of the pot.
He didn't really understand what I meant but I picked a card in the deck and it was the A, giving me a full house if we still had our hands.

What you think about the whole situation ?
Should I suppose he would had called my turn raise for sure and concede him the pot ? Am I really a sore loser or was I right to object about him taking the whole pot ?

Thanks in advance
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:55 PM   #2
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Stuff like this happens all the time at friendly self dealt homegames. I don't know what your stakes are, so I guess that it could make some difference to you. Often it is best for the game group dynamic to accept a mistake like that and make a deal and move on like you did. You gave the impression to some of the crew that you were a bit of a sore loser , but not a total asshat about it.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:23 PM   #3
ShowMeUrAce
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Hi sir, thank you for your input.
Thing is, I really wanted to propose my opponent a deal because I think that sharing the pot was not entirely fair for my opponent, yet conceding him the entire pot was not entirely fair to me...
I'm really not an angle type guy at all and I like my games fair in the strictest way possible, I don't like either of the parties involved to feel "duped".

Thing is, other people not in the hand were so excited and it was such a mess that I didn't even have the time or possibility to propose something fairer, that's what made me the most frustrated.
People there are not heavily into poker and don't know/care about things like Robert's Rules or some casino rules, so they have sometimes a weird perception of "official" rulings...

What's your opinion if we're referring strictly to the rules ?

Robert's Rules say :

MISDEALS

1. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands. (If two players have acted in turn, the deal must be played to conclusion, as explained in rule #2) :

[...]
"(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard)."

What's actually important to me is if I made things according to the rules or not, other people's opinion are secondary.
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:36 PM   #4
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

If you hadn’t yet exposed cards on the river, I would have proposed the river card is shuffled back in the deck and a new river is drawn after turn action completes. This way that original card could still come and he has the same odds - only difference is you both know that no one has the 5d.


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Old 11-15-2017, 09:44 PM   #5
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Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShowMeUrAce View Post
Hi sir, thank you for your input.

Thing is, I really wanted to propose my opponent a deal because I think that sharing the pot was not entirely fair for my opponent, yet conceding him the entire pot was not entirely fair to me...

I'm really not an angle type guy at all and I like my games fair in the strictest way possible, I don't like either of the parties involved to feel "duped".



Thing is, other people not in the hand were so excited and it was such a mess that I didn't even have the time or possibility to propose something fairer, that's what made me the most frustrated.

People there are not heavily into poker and don't know/care about things like Robert's Rules or some casino rules, so they have sometimes a weird perception of "official" rulings...



What's your opinion if we're referring strictly to the rules ?



Robert's Rules say :



MISDEALS



1. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands. (If two players have acted in turn, the deal must be played to conclusion, as explained in rule #2) :


[...]

"(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard)."



What's actually important to me is if I made things according to the rules or not, other people's opinion are secondary.


I’m pretty sure that misdeal rule is talking about preflop before any action has taken place.

Instead rule 15:

15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.

And rule 8 in holdem section:
If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on this rule.]
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:15 AM   #6
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

The proper thing to do is to take back the river card, shuffle it back into the stub, let the SB make his decision, then deal out a new river. As mentioned above this allows the same card an opportunity to be dealt again. If you just discard it and deal a new river, then your opponent might oppose because now there is 1 less diamond for him to hit.

It sounds like the cards were opened up after the river was dealt. Once the premature river card was dealt then everyone should have determined what to do before any more action happened. Unfortunately it sounds like nobody knew, but at least that way you wouldn't come off as the "sore loser" since you, nor anyone else knew if you had actually won or lost the hand yet.
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Old 11-16-2017, 03:25 PM   #7
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanmanPoker View Post
The proper thing to do is to take back the river card, shuffle it back into the stub, let the SB make his decision, then deal out a new river. As mentioned above this allows the same card an opportunity to be dealt again. If you just discard it and deal a new river, then your opponent might oppose because now there is 1 less diamond for him to hit.

It sounds like the cards were opened up after the river was dealt. Once the premature river card was dealt then everyone should have determined what to do before any more action happened. Unfortunately it sounds like nobody knew, but at least that way you wouldn't come off as the "sore loser" since you, nor anyone else knew if you had actually won or lost the hand yet.
I would suggest one subtle change to that post. Do not reshuffle the card into the deck until after the player has acted. This reduces the risk of any more cards being accidentally exposed during the shuffle before he has acted.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:01 PM   #8
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanmanPoker View Post
The proper thing to do is to take back the river card, shuffle it back into the stub, let the SB make his decision, then deal out a new river. As mentioned above this allows the same card an opportunity to be dealt again. If you just discard it and deal a new river, then your opponent might oppose because now there is 1 less diamond for him to hit.
This is absolutely the textbook way to handle it. It doesn't matter how the premature river card would affect people's hands; if it was exposed with action still pending on the turn, it can't stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChanmanPoker View Post
It sounds like the cards were opened up after the river was dealt. Once the premature river card was dealt then everyone should have determined what to do before any more action happened. Unfortunately it sounds like nobody knew, but at least that way you wouldn't come off as the "sore loser" since you, nor anyone else knew if you had actually won or lost the hand yet.
Yeah, in a spot like this, people need to keep their cards concealed and wait for a resolution. It's so frustrating when people insist on exposing yet more cards when there's a point of controversy. The situation was messy enough already. If hole cards get exposed too, it's a disaster.

But even if the cards were opened up, the Q can't stand. You still have to roll it back and make him act on the turn bet, which he still hasn't even called! He doesn't get to decide whether to call that bet after he's seen the river.

It's still unfair to you that he would get to act after he's seen your hole cards. You also lose out on the possibility of winning money on non-flush river cards or betting him off the pot even if he catches a flush. But there's no way to fix all that if you've exposed your cards already, whereas it's an easy, fair fix to roll back the Q if nothing else was exposed.

The players calling you a "sore loser" and "****ing miser" are a bunch of *******s. You got screwed by the premature exposure more than anyone, and you deserve a fair resolution. Situations like this highlight the importance of having a host who knows how to run a poker game and takes charge when necessary.
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Old 11-16-2017, 04:23 PM   #9
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Yes, BUT, if the host does not know what to do, and the rest of the crew does not, then some kind of friendly deal is much better than a major confrontation. This is not a casino table (no floor) and I doubt the home game stakes are that high. I suggest the OP goes back to the game next session and explains what he has learned here and they can resolve the next mistake more in line with poker norms. Good home game players do not grow on trees like they used to. Keeping a good vibe is important. The OP wasn't clear himself how best to proceed. Now he knows and he can inform the rest of the players.
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Old 11-16-2017, 05:37 PM   #10
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

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Originally Posted by Jimulacrum View Post
But even if the cards were opened up, the Q can't stand. You still have to roll it back and make him act on the turn bet, which he still hasn't even called! He doesn't get to decide whether to call that bet after he's seen the river.

It's still unfair to you that he would get to act after he's seen your hole cards. You also lose out on the possibility of winning money on non-flush river cards or betting him off the pot even if he catches a flush. But there's no way to fix all that if you've exposed your cards already, whereas it's an easy, fair fix to roll back the Q if nothing else was exposed.

The players calling you a "sore loser" and "****ing miser" are a bunch of *******s. You got screwed by the premature exposure more than anyone, and you deserve a fair resolution.
100% to all this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
Yes, BUT, if the host does not know what to do, and the rest of the crew does not, then some kind of friendly deal is much better than a major confrontation. This is not a casino table (no floor) and I doubt the home game stakes are that high. I suggest the OP goes back to the game next session and explains what he has learned here and they can resolve the next mistake more in line with poker norms. Good home game players do not grow on trees like they used to. Keeping a good vibe is important. The OP wasn't clear himself how best to proceed. Now he knows and he can inform the rest of the players.
and 120% to this. Like Jim said, there is ZERO chance I'm giving up that pot using Qd as the river card. But along BG's lines, I'd probably accept most other solutions, assuming this is a game that I feel somewhat invested in nurturing. But as hard as it is to keep a home game going, being around a bunch of jerks who are calling OP names when he did nothing wrong, idk how much nurturing I'd feel like doing.
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Old 11-18-2017, 10:02 AM   #11
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

Hey guys,
Thank you very much for all your answers, much appreciated !

I realized that I forgot to explain exactly what happened when river was dealt, and that's where I could be partly guilty.
When the Q was dealt, I looked very exasperated and voiced it like "aaaah maan, that's not serious", my opponent didn't look so happy to see that river card either.
He then proposed the deal I explained above (no betting on river) and he said : "well, guess it's yours anyway".
At that point, I was kinda confused and said/showed "I got only 2 pairs", thinking that he hadn't any and was also on a DP or bad A's pair.

So my mistake was to not set on proper ruling before showing my cards, but on the other hand, it's very hard to decide on a ruling without giving clear info about your hand, so I thought it was kinda hard to deal with, in any way.

I think that putting the Q back in the deck, re-shuffling, letting my opponent acts then dealing a river again is clearly the fairest solution and it seems like a consensus here, so that's what I'll propose if such a situation happens in future.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:41 AM   #12
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

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Originally Posted by ShowMeUrAce View Post

Before SB could act, dealer dealt the ______


2 or 3 other people were shouting, .... and everybody wanted to move on to the next hand
What you think about the whole situation ?
Should I suppose he would had called my turn raise for sure and concede him the pot ? Am I really a sore loser or was I right to object about him taking the whole pot ?

Thanks in advance
Premature card. There are rules in previous responses to cover this. It happens with enough frequency that a standard response should be decided before the next game.

No surprise to those without a vested interest. They just want to move along, without thinking that it may be them getting the short end of the stick next time.

I think it's unfortunate. I think it's a possible sign of lots of things, lack of leadership, new players, new game, etc. Probably easy to fix if the host/players are interested. Nearly impossible if they aren't.

No, you shouldn't suppose anything with a decent raise. I'll allow assumptions that a player will call an extra 1/2 BB all-in shove to their pot sized bet... but not much else. I'm not conceding the pot. You were not a sore loser and right to object to him taking the whole pot.
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:39 AM   #13
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

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[...]
I think it's unfortunate. I think it's a possible sign of lots of things, lack of leadership, new players, new game, etc. Probably easy to fix if the host/players are interested. Nearly impossible if they aren't.[...]
You nailed it, sir.
Prob at this game is hosts (who are 3 to own the place) who lack of poker knowledge and also lack of will to make the game more "proper", so situations like this could (and will) happen again and it will be the same mess, because none of the host will learn from what happened here.
To be honest, I live in a very small town and I don't have lot of choices when it comes to live poker so I deal with what I find, but it's clearly not the best poker game possible...
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:55 AM   #14
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

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Originally Posted by ShowMeUrAce View Post
You nailed it, sir.
Prob at this game is hosts (who are 3 to own the place) who lack of poker knowledge and also lack of will to make the game more "proper", so situations like this could (and will) happen again and it will be the same mess, because none of the host will learn from what happened here.
To be honest, I live in a very small town and I don't have lot of choices when it comes to live poker so I deal with what I find, but it's clearly not the best poker game possible...
it's still worth your time to at least try to gently "educate" them on stuff like this. Who knows , some of it might actually get through to them. Be as diplomatic as you can. Your poker situation might require you to simply accept how it is and make the best of it. Not ideal, but to me, better than no game at all. Good luck
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Old 11-19-2017, 04:14 PM   #15
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

The most important thing is that you have a rule and you stick to it. It seems clear that they currently don't. Our game has had some situations like this, and they used to be contentious. Once we got everyone to agree that any prematurely shown card would be shuffled back until the action was closed, we haven't had any problems. It still happens occasionally, but now nobody complains because we have a procedure and stick to it.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:59 PM   #16
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

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It still happens occasionally, but now nobody complains because we have a procedure and stick to it.
Lucky you. For some players, sticking to a procedure isn't enough to keep them from complaining.

At my regular weekly game, we had an incident a couple months ago where the entire flop was dealt prematurely. Our rule is the proper one (reshuffle and redeal), enforced consistently. The host asked me to guide him step-by-step and take it slowly so no one was confused.

One of the premature flop cards would have given one of the players in the hand a set on the flop. He had a small pair versus multi-way all-in action, so it was an open question as to whether he'd have called, but seeing that card made his decision for him (even though he still had an equal chance for the set as he would have preflop on any hand, but don't try to tell him that).

He was last to act, and when it got to him, he was so upset about missing out on the set that he slammed his small pair face-up and said "Screw this, cash me out!" Certain players are just like that, I guess. Doesn't matter what the rule is or how fairly it's enforced; they're going to ***** if they don't like the outcome (or how long it's taking, or whatever).
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:05 PM   #17
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Re: Dealer deals river card before my opponent acts

you need to raise that **** preflop on the button...

seriously tho don't bring up roberts rules in a friendly home game...that will make you seem nitty and not fun.

Honestly if it was me I would have just said lets split the pot and move on. It really is annoying for the rest of the players to have to sit through a ridiculous argument/conversation. People are in home games to get together and have fun...not sit through nitty drama.

Either split the pot then and there or use Chanman's solution which is perfect assuming you have the presence of mind to utilize that solution.
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