No reason to keep being a dick about it.

My answer remains: The same place casinos do. People like playing poker and demonstrate with alarming regularity that they'll pay through the nose to do so.

Well, it's hard to say. Perhaps he used to have whites on the table and now he gets tipped 1-in-3 pots for $5 instead of 1-in-5 for $1. [...or whatever.]

This is like strip joints and $2 bills. [Perhaps.]

Because we're talking about two different stakes here, isn't it more fair to compare these rates as BB/hr? In that case it would be 105 and 130 respectively. Still a substantial difference, but not the 300% that it appears to be when comparing dollars to dollars.

I agree with Palimax that many people will pay to get their game on with little regard for how much they are paying, regardless of whether the beneficiary is a casino or an underground game.

However, pfapfap has a definite point about sustainability. Casinos have the advantage of being legal, well-funded, and well-publicized. Underground games have none of these advantages, so the player pool they can draw from is significantly smaller. Casinos can milk a few regs dry and barely feel the dent, but when a small underground room does the same thing, it can kill the game.

Now play nice, boys.

I thought you would appreciate the balance of execution. You're the one setting up tee-balls here.

Perhaps, but I don't think low stakes casino games are beatable long-term, specifically because of the rake and tokes relative to the stakes. Also consider that the BB/hr rake I quoted does not include tips, and the OP indicated this number is often substantially higher.

Thank you. This is my point, yes.

Beyond that, poker players generally don't do what's best for themselves. Yes, many will play wherever they're sitting, but the games will still dry up without the casual players being able to pinpoint why. Besides, players aren't completely stupid. I don't know any of the regular casino players here who would stand for such a rake, let alone tip hustling, and it's not like these guys are making +EV decisions. For the low-stakes games, the casino's goal is to find a good balance of taking off enough to be profitable without bleeding the table dry too quickly, all while keeping the revolving door moving. From what's been described, this home game has tipped too far in one direction.

Or maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like far too much taken off the table, and from hosts who see short-term dollar signs instead of long-term sustainability.

400BB and that's not counting the redbird they expect with each non-small pot. Just ridiculous highway robbery. And that's assuming there is no other cheating going on. There is no group of donkeys in America that can sustain that kind of game for longer than a few months, tops.

What's the name and address of this guy so I can report him to the police for felony theft?

Just amazing.

People who run raked games: Your greed will get you in trouble. Keep it under $5 and cap it or you're just cooking the golden goose. Try no-raking and you'd be surprised how long you can sustain the game and make some good tip money. Greedy greedy greedy.

I'm a dealer (and co-host) myself in a local home game, and the behaviour OP mentioned is just dispicable. I NEVER ask for a tip myself, or not even give the slightest hint that someone "missed" tipping me after a big pot. I just go on with my dealing and when I do get tipped I always reply with a quick "thank you" or something. I found that players appreciate this and thus become more generous in their tipping.

However I do have a question regarding our rake-system and wanted to hear some of your opinions (sorry for hijacking your topic OP):

Game: 2/2$
Rake: pot >20$ = 2$ rake
pot >50$ = 5$ rake
pot >200$= 10$ rake
Extra non-poker benefits:
- free drinks all night
- small snack buffet (might range from sandwiches to some fried snacks)
- save environment: this game is played in a country where poker is illegal, so a secure and secret location is definitely a plus

Is this a game you'd like to play in?

I think playing in games raked greater than $5 is ridiculous.

And LOL at a listing of food and drink provided as if that costs even a fraction of what you get in a night charging $10 per pot plus tips.

This is not a home game. It's an underground card room. And it is illegal, as you admit. Do not post in this forum about this game.

And your rake is outrageous.

just tell him "hey listen buddy, if u stop askn me for tips ill give u tips, deal?

"Here's your tip- you're already making a fortune from the rake, and the "bonus" rake you seem to be taking here and there. Don't be so obvious about being greedy."

BIG fail- read the OP again.

I guess you're right. This game has indeed lost the "spirit" of a home game, and has evolved into what you can call an underground card room. But isn't that the fate of most home games? Stakes getting higher over time, people getting more serious about making money, etc.

Shame tho...

No. At least not ours... Our poker games have never been about "making money", but more about having a good time with friends. Sure, you try to win, but it's no big deal if you don't.

If we go out to a bar on a Friday night and see a band for example. $5-$10 cover usually around here and you buy a few drinks for you and the wife. You can drop $75 easy. If you get drunk and take a cab home... Now you are looking at spending close to $150-$200. On poker night we play a tourney buy in for $20 and $5 in side pots. $25 bucks to have a few beers and a good time without the annoying bar scene. It's a better time if you ask me and we're playing cards to boot. Winning is a little trash talk amongst friends and just icing on the cake.

I realize that's not everyone's case, but that's what Home Game Poker means to us. Even if you're playing pot limit or something, we usually don't drop more than $50 on a bad night.

After my post, I thought about the same thing. My understanding is that as stakes get larger, the rake typically gets smaller (proportionally). So raking 2-3BB in a large pot might be acceptable at 1/2, but outrageous at 100/200.

That's exactly what I meant with "the spirit of a home game", which is lost in the game I discussed. Although it started of as a getting together amongst friends (similar to your story) somewhere along the road it all turned a bit sour. I regret it, and it's one of the reasons I don't play there anymore, and started dealing (another reason is -obviously- because I got owned ). So poker turned into something I could make money with, not something I would play for fun.

I don't know where exactly it all went the wrong way. Maybe because people were inviting friends of friends who in their turn invited "friends", which ended the idea of just close friends playing together, and the game turned into quasi-strangers competing for money.

Another turning point might have been when everybody agreed (and those who didn't just stayed away afterwards) to up the stakes. We started of with a pot-limit 0,5/1 game with a max. buy-in of 50$. That quickly turned into no-limit, then no-limit with a max. of 100$, after that 1/2 with a max. of 200$ to where it's at now: 1/2 with a max 400$ buy-in in a location thats hired solely for organising the game. People are even talking about playing a 5/5 game in the future...

Is this game doomed to collapse on itself one day?

Yes, I'm making good money out of dealing in this game, so in a monetary sense I only profited from the developments mentioned above, so romanticizing about the "spirit of home games" might sound very hypocritical and I acknowledge that. But, who isn't sometimes torn between his ethics and making money? I don't feel like the host and I are ripping people off (although some of you might disagree on that). The players now what they are paying and seem to agree on the price for the service we are providing.

In my crystal ball I see some cloudy images... nothing is certain...

A quick glimpse of you looking tired. It is long in the future, and the game is mostly like it is now. The players keep fading away, and you are constantly busy going outside and coming back with new ones...

A different image, this one is closer to now: I see a few whales driving the stakes up. The casual players bust out or quit before they do. The whales go broke to the sharks. Someone owes lots of money to someone. Somebody is very angry. There are very few players left. Everybody is unhappy. There are threats. You are still making money, but it is close to the end...

Another image (or maybe it's the same one?): Flashing lights. It's the police. They are packing all your equipment and money into plastic bags and taking photographs. You are in a courtroom. You are apologizing to someone...

Another image: You are playing with your friends. The stakes are very low. The sun is shining, and the grass is green. You are not in the hired location any more. Everyone is smiling. There doesn't seem to be much money in this scene. Someone just dragged a big pot, and no rake came out of it.

^^Tell us, Swami...which future will come to pass?

always in motion is the future.

Is OP to be a victim of fate? Is there nothing he can do to find the happy path?

Fixed your post, Moneybags.

I would love to have a gig dealing with no rake. If $50 an hour in tips isn't enough for you then youre just greedy.

For argument's sake, $50/hr is indeed good money - if you can get it 2080 hours a year, with benefits - and if you're only the dealer, and not the house. That's the magic 100k (before taxes). Unfortunately, you'd have to pay me more than that to deal underground poker where I provided the overhead. Even if I've just got to pay, say, 1-3k/mo for a location or risk your own residence should something go very badly, it's not a lot of money -- unless you're just the dealer.

Of course, no dealer will ever tell what they make - but we know 30+hands/hr with "expected" tips fits into the equation, so... $50/hr when working a good game doesn't seem so awful - sadly.

i used to play in a game like this.. not only did the dealer only get tipped red birds but the house would double and triple rake the pots nobody ever complained much well we would but the house would donate all the rake plus back into the game every weekend he was that bad... the way i battled the tipping situation was only tip the equivelent of about 1 or 2 per pot for every red bird i tipped... kind of gonna look cheap in front of friends if u whip singles out but yeah.. the dwould always be a plus 400 500 for the night my spellings bad i know... thats all