I play in a local PLO game (with a cap). Players will often put in a bet / shove and not announce the total amount.

When the wager clearly exceeds the pot / cap, someone will quickly point out what the maximum amount the player can actually bet so as to avoid confusion.

However, when the bet is of a legal size (i.e. clearly less than the pot and below the cap), is it right for a second person, who may or not be in the hand, to take the initiative and count out the chips for the wagering player (or simply vocalize a guesstimate of the amount)? Most players in our group don't object to someone else counting their wagered chips. One person in particular does.

The situation in our game which occurred recently was that the person making the bet did not want his stack counted (until the next player in turn asked for a count). The counter claimed that he was speeding up play and simultaneously verifying the bet conformed to the game's bet size restrictions.

I get the fact that people asking for a count in a multi-way pot when it's not their turn can impact action. That's not the question here. The question is whether the person making the wager has a right to stop anyone else from counting his bet until another player still in the hand and next to act, requests a count.

Appreciate the feedback.

In a casino, other players should never be handling your chips, ergo they cannot "count" your bet stacks at any time, unless they can do so visually only. (And even then they should not do so out loud, though it often happens.)

In a PL game, the dealer can always count your bet, to ensure it is a valid bet size. Having said that, I would say proper procedure would be not to do so until (1) asked by a player whose turn it currently is, or (2) the betting round is over and dealer makes sure the bets and calls are all proper.

Ideally, the scenario you describe should not occur. The wagering player is right to voice his objections about another player touching his chips, and also about a bet being counted without anyone asking. I do not believe that this speeds the game up. If anything it slows it down because every time a bet is counted, all action at the table grinds to a halt until the count is completed and verified. This is easily observable at any table where it's customary to count bets.

I play in a game where the bets are counted every time. I don't object loudly, although I have pointed it out to the dealers in private. However, if another player reached out and counted my chips, I would politely ask that he not touch my chips in the future.

a player would not be able to touch chips in the pot, and chips wagered are part of the pot (not part of pot calculations until called...) OPTAH. and if hte player gives wrong info, it just leads to problems.

Can't argue with any of that.

I would point out that this is, for all intents and purposes, a home game. The dealing is done by the players themselves and rotates around the table. While there is no "official" dealer, in order to preserve order, one person will sit in the middle of the table and perform all of the tasks of the dealer to keep the game organized.

So if I understand your point correctly, you're saying that all players, dealers and other degenerates in the immediate vicinity, should leave the player's wager uncounted unless there is a clear need to verify it conforms to the game's bet size restrictions. Once that standard is met, the only person who should ask for a count is the next player in turn. Additionally, the other players / "dealer" shouldn't automatically announce the amount of the wager, unless there is a question regarding whether or not it is an improperly sized bet.

The real key to unsolicited involvement here seems to be how easily it can be determined that the player's wager conforms to the table's restrictions.

Thanks for the input.

Worth noting that it's a game of friends that's been going on for years. Nobody objects to / worries about one person touching someone else's chips.

I would also dispute the notion that counting chips somehow slows down the game. Players slow down the game. With sloppy stacks... with splashing pots... with folded cards uncollected... with the endless time spent staring at their phone... and so on and so on. All these things lead to confusion and petty arguments. I've found that a table that stays tidy and organized moves at a much better pace. And that's really at the heart of the question here. Where to draw the line between the benefit from someone helping to keep the game moving vs a player's right to do what's in his own perceived best interest?

We usually move home game questions out of this forum, and it's for this reason.

In a home game, you can do whatever the players agree is acceptable. If you all agree it's acceptable to handle each other's chips, then go for it.

But by the same token, if you want to answer the question of whether it's acceptable for anyone to ask how much was bet, or to answer someone else's question, then it's the exact same answer - you can if the players in the game want to allow it, and can't if they don't.

My apologies. I wasn't sure of the exact location to post this thread.

For future reference, what would be the proper forum area for rules / etiquette questions at a home game?

Home Poker Forum. Just scroll down the list in General Poker where you found this forum.

Welcome to Home Poker, the best forum on 2+2!

As with almost 100% of our discussions, a lot depends on what type of home game we're talking about. Friendly? or between (mostly) friends and regulars? or a game that's more like an underground game except in someone's home? or some variation in between.

It seems like your game doesn't in general have a problem with someone handling another person's chips, depending on the situation. A table captian counting out someone else's bet would fall in this 'no big deal' category for games I both host and attend, but we've mostly known each other for a couple of years.

Assuming that's about where your game's host and most of the players are, for me the part I'm less happy about is a player essentially objecting to having his bet counted out. He may be technically correct that only a player still in the hand (and perhaps only the player next to act) has a right to ask for this info, but for me anyway, it's a home game not a WSOP final table, and this guy is trying to use a technicality (that could slow down the game) in order to gain some advantage. We're not talking about a basic rule like string bets, we're talking about verifying a bet amount. This shouldn't be an issue. Again, depending on the dynamic that your group is looking for, I'm inclined to think that if he's the only one who has a problem here, then he may not be a great fit for your game.

(As an aside, if I'm ever in a hand and the guy doesn't want his bet amount verified and it's less than PSB, I'm probably going to snap him off.)

Are people saying the dealer shouldn't announce the size of bets unless explicitly requested? Is this a PLO specific thing?