Felt the need to get this off my chest at 415am. The game has been over since 1am today. I play in a home game that travels between 4 houses with the same group of player.
Cliffs: have played with the same 8-12 players for the most part for the past 5 years in a weekly and sometimes monthly game (on average a minimum of 2 games per month)
Stakes of .50/1 no limit
There has always been one player who has been extremely fortunate with having big hands. On average he gets quads 2-3 times per 4-5 hour session at holdem. I have played poker for over 20 years and always thought this was super rare and unlikely. This has gone on for the better part of 4 years. I can't remember the last time Mr. X did not win a tourney or walk out with less than 300 big blinds. I was thinking that the cards may have been marked and went as far as getting fresh decks on multiple occasions and examined afterwords to find nothing.

Tonight was no different. Our night started with a tourney where Mr. X In less than 2 hrs he had produced (2) 4 of a kinda via pocket pair and 1 straight flush. Strange, but he runs hot.

Well, tonight I caught him in the act along with another 2+2er who I have known personally for 8 yrs and play with on occasion. Mr. X would set the deck and count out the cards setting the deck prior to the cut. If there were 9 players, he would count out nine cards and set the deck according while looking at the cards. Once cut the cards would be dealt to the players accordingly. As others were looking down at their holdings, Mr. X would be glancing through the bottom cards of the deck and putting a card that would improve his hand on the bottom. The action would make its way to Mr. X and he would play every button. As the action moved to his right, he would take the bottom card and slide it under the burn card and set the river card.
An individual has pointed this out to me and I then witnessed it. From here I told another person who I have played with for over 15 years and he could not believe it until he saw it with his own eyes. From here, I was able to pull aside the individual who introduced me to Mr. X 5 yrs ago to tell him the news. My friend thought it was a joke at first until he witnessed it every deal from when we got back to the table. Needless to say I am super pissed that a "friend" who I have known of 5 years was doing this in our games. I ended up finding out what some individual lost for the night and paid them out of my pocket for their losses. Please note, this is a friendly NON raked game. It's not fair for others to be cheated in a game at my house or anywhere. Despite Mr. X winning over 600 bb on the night I am at a loss for words and feel so betrayed.

I can't believe that I did not catch this earlier. Had always thought I personally ran super poorly in this game when all along myself and all other players were cheated by Mr. X.

Let's see what unfolds over the next few days. The next game is scheduled for Mr. X house in the near future. I will not be attending along with the others who personally witnessed it. Over the next few days, I will need to find a way to break the news to the other 5 regulars and need advise on how to break the news.

Nobody runs that hot for that long, at those stakes. Nobody wins big ALL the time, at those stakes. Seems like it took quite a while for folks to start paying attention. So you are saying this guy was manipulating the deck right at the table for all this time (5 years 100/200 sessions) and no one noticed till now? I assume most of his BIG hands were always when he dealt, for 5 years? This guy must be one of the better/best mechanics in Chicago or your group must be one of the most unaware crews ever.

And now you are asking for advice on how to deal with this from HG 2+2ers? Sorry OP but this borders on the absurd. Others may have better advice or kinder responses, I just find your situation too bizarre for me to get a handle on. Glad you at least found out. Expensive 5 years for you and your friends.

He would get quads 2-3 times per ever 4-5 sessions and you did think that was outrageous? For comparison, I have 365k hands on my tracker, I've gotten quads 106 times while having a pocket pair.

I don't mean to be a dick, but this is kinda on all of your players and you for not realizing something SO egregious

The dude is literally setting the deck while at the table with everyone else? How can that be?

Actually the OP said quads 2 or 3 times per 4 or 5 HOUR session. LOL at that

Sorry but I have no idea what you're describing. Am I the only one who doesn't understand? What do you mean when you say, "set the deck" and are you saying he's looking through the deck (while dealing) during the hand and pulling cars out?

I'm lost.

WOW. Very sorry to hear that. It sucks when you realize trust has been broken.


There is no excuse for cheating. It does appear that this may have been a crime of opportunity. There are common procedures discussed and encouraged here that prevent a lot of that opportunity. While many groups are shocked to find a player has cheated, I think for some cheaters, it's no more difficult that picking up a $20 bill from the floor that they know isn't theirs.


The most shocking, is that the cheater was able to walk out at the end of the night, as if nothing wrong had happened. As multiple people witnessed the cheating, why was any money given back to the cheater. I don't advocate a violent response, but I'm certainly not giving money out of my pocket, and allowing the cheater to keep profit.

As an unknowing player, I'm hurt for many reasons. If I'm a loser and I find out another loser got repaid (but not me), I'm confused. If I find out the cheater left with money, even more confused.

Once things were confirmed, it needs to get out into the open. It needs to be resolved. Are you really going to let players go to the cheaters house to play? How in the world do you face them after they find that out?

Out the cheater. Cut the cancer out of the game. Change procedures, so that it's not as easy to cheat.

This is a friendly game where where everyone who played was friends for many years. The low stakes made the game very friendly. There were suspicions before and I thought by taking appropriate measures by using fresh decks and examination would show a chance. Obviously it did not. After knowing everyone coworkers of friends, it's disgusting how someone would do this.
The point of this post is don't become so comfortable with your surrounding to think at cheating will never happen between your group of players regardless of income levels and other outside factors including honorable military status regardless of the stakes.

Today I will be feasting out to the others and find out what they lost and pay them for the losses they suffered at my house.


Let's just say Cairo book of tells does not go into cheating. All of the players are responsible for watching to ensure the game is played fairly.

OK, maybe I was a bit dismissive of your situation in an earlier comment. Being cheated by a trusted friend is a harsh moment. Setting a deck openly while shuffling is very , very difficult to do often without being noticed. Usually a set deck is switched , but only a time or two a session. Having this person do it so often and for so long without being caught in the act simply stumped me. I can only chalk it up to him being good at it , but being helped by your crew really not paying enough attention to procedures and too many home game distractions.

Letting this go for one second longer without telling everyone will destroy your group. Lots of damage is already done. Kudos for finally taking the right action anyway. I host weekly for several years now, I don't envy you. Best wishes sincerely.

agree you guys screwed up by not calling him out on it right away.

but now you should all go to his game with cooler decks in each pocket, and just hope he has enough reload cash to do a full orbit. After he's stacked by the button 8 times in a row, everybody cashes out and calls him a douchebag.

Thanks for the stats. Everyone always perceived this person as lucky and thought nothing of it. What's a few buys ins a session? We are there to shoot the **** and get caught up on each other's family's.

I personally am a low limit player transitioning to no limit and have been for some time now. I chalked it up to variance, poor bet sizing etc and downswing. I would run numbers through poker stove and see that I was xx% favorite time and time again only to feel good about getting in soooo good and that's just how the cards ran out.

We play with 2 decks of cards and the deck not in play is passed to the next dealer to shuffle prior to being cut and dealt. Mr. X would shuffle and then look at the cards upside down semi rifling through the cards. From here he would find cards he wanted. If there were 6 people at the table, he would count out 5 and place a pre selected card to go out as #6 to him along with card #12. The flop would come and as action made its way around the table, Mr X would be flipping through the bottom of the deck selecting a card that would improve his hand on the turn. The turn would come out and as action would make its way around the table, Mr x would determine the river and place it at the bottom of the deck and then slide it in for the turn. He was very very smooth and obviously practiced for some time.

So you and a couple other guys actually seen him cheating and still didn't even out him after seeing it happen a few times? How do you just see it and continue to finish out the session no big deal? Getting quads that often in itself is ridiculous, but you didn't find it odd that it only happened on his deal?

You have to let the other guys know about Mr x cheating. You can't allow half of the guys to continue getting cheating while you figure out how to handle it. I'm not big on violence but if I get cheated for 5 years there's no way the did just gets to walkout of the game after getting caught. Do you realize how much money he has taken over 5 years?

Yes. He would fiddle through the deck looking for a card he needed and then place it on the bottom. He would either raise the flop or call depending where the bet was. As the action passed to his right, he would then slide the card from the bottom to ma,e it under the burn card improving his hand on every street.

It was agreed on to not confront the cheater as he can be a hot head so I am told. I never saw the hot head side of the player but people who knew him longer said it was best to not step in at that moment. This person served in the military and may have PTSD or something else that I was not aware of.

The game ended less than 1 hr after I had 3 others confirm that we were all seeing the same thing. I am not a confrontational person and felt it would be best to be handled after the fact. I am unsure how the future will play out but one thing is for sure, I along with the others I have reached out to, will not be inviting or playing with this individual going forward.

I'm lost. How does one manipulate the deck in anyway at the table without anybody noticing? For 5 years?! Quads 2-3 times a session? Sounds like some very dense folks at this poker game. If this is the case I would be so embarrassed for being such an idiot I would never post it on any forum.

Thanks for your understanding. You know how hard it is to keep a regular game going. It's not an excuse but 2 people n the crew work directly with Mr. X in the same small office.

All players in the game are at fault for not catching this. Once identified, it was extremely blatant. Having to pull a trusted friend aside to tell him what you see another player doing in the game is unethical is the last thing you would expect among friends. It's hardly believable that someone would be cheating from this close nit group. One he saw it with his own eyes he could hardly believe it either.

#karmaisabitch

Holy ****! I completely misread that. That is amazing that so many people were so clueless for so long

I can definitely understand not wanting to confront him and what not, personally not my style, but I can completely understand where you're coming from. Honestly, as long as you're handling it, which it appears you are by just dropping him from the group, I think you'll be ok. Some people might be pissed about the refunding and what not, but whatever, you are handling it in the most nonconfrontational way possible.

You guys may want to enact some new security measures while you're at it, cut cards on the bottom of the decks when dealing, 3-person shuffle/cut/deal system. Anything that makes it harder for a cheater to cheat is better.

Exactly. Standard practice is deal the cards place the deck down flat on the table. He would hold the deck in his hand and thumb through it. I run the game like a casino to the best of my ability. Random draw for seats in cash and tourney and then redraws when it goes to 1 table. When tourney is done, the existing cash game is redrawn again with seating assignments. Cuts are always offered and some people wish not to cut. Going forward, cuts will be mandatory and the deck placed flat on the table. Funny thing is that I used to use cut cards. I will start using cut cards again going forward.

I use 2 different sets of custom chips. This is a no rake no fee game amongst friends.

If you can think of any other measures, I am all ears.

Allowing guys you've played with for 5 years to play with this guy without telling them is wrong. You have to tell them before the next game. OR....

It would be difficult, but I'd love to see a video of him working his magic. Any chance you play with him one more time and try videotaping it (without him knowing)? You could also tell him he's busted after the hand so we can see his reaction!

+1 to hidden video camera. That would be awesome and also provide you some protection if things got out of control after confronting him.

I have reached out to them already this morning to advise and offer full refunds of their losses as game was at my house.

There will be no more playing with individual as he will be confronted tomorrow at work by a co-worker who was also in the game.
Will have more details tomorrow on the reaction.

nothing like jeopardizing your career when you get into a fist fight at work with a small stakes cheat!