loose, drinking, very casual game. loose and passive preflop. about 80% plo8, 20% nlhe. people have a vague sense of hand values postflop, but will play anything at all preflop. Did I mention it's loose?

play seems obvious to me, but I don't know plo8 all that well.

1/1 plo8, 8 players:
sb = ~$100, likes to see showdowns. sees a lot of them.
BB = hero, $45
mp's = bunch of guys with $40-$200
btn = lpp, pretty straightforward postflop, ~$70

Preflop:
6 limps, sb checks
Hero KKA7, checks

Flop: K56
sb checks
Hero checks (intending to check-raise)
6 checks
BTN bets pot, $8
sb calls
Hero bets $40

hand basically ends there for us. 6 folds, btn and sb call. Turn is 7. SB bets $80. hero ldo calls for his last few chips.

Meh...with your short stack I guess the raise is fine. If you are deeper here than I'm not raising this flop.

you flat and evaluate the turn? are you betting favorable turns -- like any high card?

checkfolding if a low card comes out?

say we're 100bb deep, are we checkfolding the flop?

I misread the first time and didn't see that you check raised. With your stack, I think your line here is the right play. I'd get it in and pray that we hold on and your line allowed you to pretty much get your stack in...

You said the game was loose and passive preflop. How does it play postflop? How vague do they understand hand equities? Will they play strong draws fast and aggressive?

Without trying to beat the old "We need more information line", I think we need to know postflop tendencies here to come up with our line. I can think of quite a few hands that I could have here if I were the villian that I would be more than happy to get in against your hand and any time that you are building a big pot here on the flop I would expect the villian to have one of those hands unless they are bad enough to play middle/bottom set with no low draw badly.

As a default, if we were deeper, then I would check call the flop. Any non-pairing low card that comes on the turn that is not an A brings a potential high (in the form of a straight) and leaves you in bad shape of getting scooped at which point you are drawing to ONLY a chop and if they don't have a high but simply make their low then they are freerolling you for the whole pot on the turn. If a high card comes off on the turn (10 or higher), then yes, I am building the pot now, but if the turn is a low card, my action would depend on 1) how many players are in the pot, and 2) what the action is.

Top set on this board is hard to play with deeper stacks because it is a coordinated 2 card low flop. A flop like K82 is a different story, but, any hand that has low equity on this board (excluding naked A2s or A3s) with 3 low cards also has high equity as they have some sort of low and straight draws and you can get yourself in incredibly tough spots.

I would flat on the flop with the intention of pot control. Sets are very vulnerable in Omaha, and unless I boat up, I want to get to showdown with as much of my stack intact as possible. This is especially true when you're up against someone like the SB against whom you have about zero fold equity given his penchant for wanting to see showdowns.

Flatting on the flop lets you see the river inexpensively (well, relatively given that it's PLO), especially when you pick up 9 more outs. At that point, you have 18 outs to a sure winning hand.

Of course having said that, I would likely begetting my short stack in there with top set no matter what. Theory be damned, I have top set and a shot at doubling up. ;-)

mostly straightforward postflop, since there are so many people in every hand. People overvalue weak and one-way hands. Nobody at the table this night will push hard with a "mere" draw. Raises are somewhat rare in this game, and usually mean the nuts. The guys that understand fold equity with strong draws aren't playing tonight.

They are bad enough to play one-way hands, even non-nut draws, badly.

Small blind IS capable of folding after my checkraise, I figured.

I guess I should mention that earlier in the night, sb clapped me on the back and announced to the table "You should all play like this guy here. Look out for him: when he bets, he HAS it." If I thought anyone was listening or capable of adjusting, I'd ask him to stfu already, but mentally made a note to abuse that image if the opportunity arose. In any event we know how sb feels about our raises.

Thanks for the thoughts. Sounds like my assessment was correct: "I have the nuts. My hand kinda sucks. I want to be all in now." Sort of like in texas holdem flopping 2pair after getting a walk in the big blind.

Don't have time for the equity check, but you most likely want to thin the field on the flop, with what amounts to a one-way hand. The turn heart was one of the better low cards you could hope for, though you're probably behind both ways now.

What was the point of leaving yourself $5? Were you looking to commit without getting the whole field to come along with your AI?

If you can't thin it, and they're as LP on later streets as described, calling might be better.

PLO: $8x3 + $16 in dead money = $40 pot sized bet.

I.... am a dumbass.

I don't play too much PLO, but I'm making the same play you made, and praying for the board to pair. Turn card could have been worse; other than stealing half your pot for the low and probably making somebody a straight, you now have the NFD + 9 outs that pair the board...

LOL the biggest dumbass is the one who has no idea that he is, in fact, a dumbass!

"You, sirrah, are a ****ing Omaha moran"

ye godz

I disagree completely. I absolutely pot this flop. I've got the nut high, and a hand with no redraw on an action board. I want to win it RIGHT NOW.

You can certainly take a less aggressive tact and keep the pot small, but I'm all in favor of simply winning whatever is in there.

Obviously you get a call to the 7 which is pretty miserable for you. As would frankly any low card -- since 71 isn't likely to hold up for the low...

You're playing for half the pot now, unless a live ace ends up playing for the low. You can't possibly fold your last few chips with top set - even with the the low/straights having come.

If you read my second post, I said with OPs stack I like his checkraise line since was short and I think getting his stack in is fine.

I think you're making a dangerous assumption that by potting this flop you are going to take the pot down with a bet on the flop. Against opponents who are semi-competent, there are quite a few hands that have more than enough equity to reraise you and be happy to play for stacks against your very vunerable nut high which is why I said if you were deeper I would not be raising and there are so many turn cards that leave you in position that you are either being freerolled for the whole pot or are drawing to get half the pot on a high when you are behind and very few if any of these hands are folding if you bet the flop.


OP can't fold his last few chips, no. Which brings us back to the discussion of his line if he's deeper. Are you really building a pot with this hand to have to call a huge bet on the turn at which point you are drawing for a chop?

Playing for half the pot is one of the best ways to go broke in this game. PLO high, sure get it in. PLO8, not so quick.

Well then, I think we agree.

Get the stack in, hopefully drive a few hands out while you can. We've already chosen to play this hand, and we've hit top-set, so we're going to get the chips in.

...but yes, we don't like too many turn cards that don't pair the board.

Deeper, I likely still take a line where I pot the flop. I want to absolutely be able to bomb the turn should the board pair -- in that I don't want a low drawing for half. I want the pot big enough to do something with on the turn.

....but that's just me.

So leading the flop makes sense if we're deeper (to set up a really big bet on favorable turn), but c/r with stacks what they are?

So, if you pot the flop, what's your plan (assuming we are deeper stacked) if:

1) You are called and any A, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 or 9 comes off? (I know the 9 isn't even a low card, but in the game OP described people probably overvalue open ended straight draws and could see this as a factor here) and you have now built a big pot, are playing OOP and are either behind both ways or getting completely freerolled to the whole pot?

2) You are reraised. Are you happy to get 100+ BBs in here with a very vunerable hand?

There are 20 low cards left in the deck that we don't want to see and 17 of those cards complete any low draw AND a lot of potential straight draws.

There are only 7 cards that all but lock up a high for us (1-K, 3-5s, 3-6s), excluding the rare times someone makes quads.

There are 12 cards that assure we still have the nut high (4-Ts, 4-Js, 4-Qs), but, any of these cards now give extra equity to any hand with an A, two broadways and a wheel card.

There are 4 nines that don't bring a low, but now mean that we potentially no longer have the nut high.

Just some equities on a few hands...

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

157,440 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	46.60%	47,892	98,842	0	0	0
A234	53.40%	58,598	58,598	0	108,864	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

157,440 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	44.29%	43,476	95,989	0	0	0
2345	55.71%	61,451	61,451	0	113,088	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

157,440 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	43.33%	47,892	88,534	0	0	0
2347	56.67%	68,906	68,906	0	108,864	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

118,080 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	51.75%	35,856	86,362	0	0	0
A247	48.25%	31,718	31,718	0	81,648	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

118,080 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	51.95%	29,640	86,356	0	0	13,392
A378	48.05%	29,918	31,724	0	68,256	13,392

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

118,080 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	60.59%	53,121	87,246	0	26,352	0
6543	39.41%	28,101	30,834	0	61,488	0

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

29,520 trials (Exhaustive)

board: K56

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
KcKhAh7s	65.18%	11,126	27,058	0	3,024	324
A266	34.82%	2,318	2,462	0	17,064	324

Obviously, there are other hands that we could run here as well. I just think that building a big pot on this board texture is very dangerous. This flop has 2 low cards that are coordinated and almost any low draws have scoop equity against us as opposed to a flop like K82 where a low draw has very little high equity against our hand. We have a backdoor heart draw but plenty of low hands can also have backdoor diamonds and clubs here to add to their low and straight draw equity as well (even if not a ton, it still must be accounted for in this game).

My point is, with OPs stack in the actual hand, I'm getting it in every time. If I'm deeper, I'm taking a much different line. Plus, there are still two cards to come. I'd much rather set myself up to bomb a safe turn card with only one card to come and the odds of my opponent making a hand going down then build a pot with two streets still left to play.

Pali and I are obviously in disagreement over your line if you are deeper. I'm check-calling the flop. With stacks they way they are, yes, I think the c/r is just fine. Get it in and hope...

As a side note...I wouldn't tell the guy to stfu, but I'd tell him to talk louder so everyone hears it and then start bluffing/semi-bluffing away. I played in a new game Friday night and didn't know till after the fact, but apparently the guy that invited me posted on their message board for the game that he was bringing his friend who is "a shark" so people had some preconceived notion of my abilities. Some let me run them over and some tried to play back at me and always picked the wrong spot. I ended up almost +450 BBs in about 3 hours. (It was a small stakes game...but I'll throw the subtle brag out there anyways...).

I know what you mean, but this table is loose enough even after hearing this that bluffs are a rare opportunity.

Was saving this for the appropriate moment. Educational strat conversation so far, and this will probably kill it, but for entertainment value:

The problem with the hand isn't so much the line we have to take, but that we're playing a hand that might always get this kind of flop. With the exception of hitting a flush draw, we've already got the lock 17th low! in a game where we need to play for both sides.

...but we're here, and we need to do something.

If we're going to play KK and do something on Kxx flops, there's almost always going to be cards we're afraid of. There's little to no redraw with our hand no matter what happens.

So I figure we've got two lines (in general), keep the pot small and be prepared to surrender to a low+straight turn card, or build a pot so we can take it down on the turn with a favorable card. I prefer (in general) a much more aggressive tact.

In this particular hand, I just feel as though we've made this mess and now we've got to clean it up.

I absolutely do not like playing for half the pot, ever. I'm with you.

But like I said, I think my only chance of winning this WHOLE pot is with a bet. I know the OP's story is of a loose game, so I can only hope the check-raise caries with it enough strength to drive out some people who might scoop me.

...or, fold and pick a better hand to get my money in with.

The story has a 7H on the turn. So now I'm just sitting, praying, for a 2H or 3H to maybe come counterfeit someone and maybe let me scoop with a live ace.

In my defense here, I did not choose to play it (especially 8-to-the-flop, out of position). I got a walk in the big blind.

I'm starting to think that had I been deep, checkfolding the flop would have been worth considering, depending on action.

So you still quartered the low?

So...would you prefer that hero open folds his BB after everyone at the table, the neighbors down the street, and the 4 kids in Europe limp in? Hero didn't put himself in this spot by entering the pot willingly with his hand, he checked his option to see a flop...

This is kind of like the old hold 'em saying of never going broke in a limped pot...

Small stack, yep, get it in, even in a situation you were forced into from the BB. Deeper stack, no need to drive the action here IMO.

It sure looks like they both just have a live ace.

Worse things happen than getting quartered in 3-way action.

Yeah, I was saying that as good thing...